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Post by rideforever on May 10, 2016 20:00:00 GMT
newsofthehorse.com/2016/horse-waterboarded-by-trainer/"Council Bluffs, Iowa – A trainer who won 1st place in the 2013 Iowa Horse Fair Colt Starting Challenge has found himself under fire for his unusual training methods. Logan Allen posted public photos to his Facebook wall of a horse with the caption “bad boy…” The photos have ignited a firestorm of anger on social media and many calls to the Sheriff Department. The first photo shows the horse tied up, laying on the ground, while a garden hose sprays water all over its body and face. Its legs are tied up tight and its tongue is hanging limply from its mouth. The second and third photos show the same horse completely covered with a large grey tarp while water is continuously sprayed over the horse and tarp. Most people who view the pictures believe they are substantive proof of animal abuse. Logan Allen has since removed the photos from his Facebook timeline." I disagree with calling it water boarding. However, it's definitely not a good training technique.
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Post by rideanotherday on May 10, 2016 20:30:44 GMT
It is water boarding.
This is a case of a guy running out of horsemanship very early.
I've read some of his responses to this. This is all I have to say.. .you don't post stuff like this if you aren't proud of it. I watch him at a colt starting clinic and he got kicked because he got out of position and pushed on a colt that wasn't ready. I believe the colt shown in this article was not prepared for what was being asked of him and the colt was abused because of it.
Sad state of affairs.
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Post by jimmy on May 10, 2016 21:04:42 GMT
It was interesting to see this story unfold. It first appeared on a Facebook group I am a member of, so I saw the very first comments, and chimed in myself a time or two. It soon went viral, practically. The fellow even had a sheriff come out to his place.
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Post by horseguy on May 10, 2016 23:50:23 GMT
I'd have to evaluate the horse before commenting. I will say that "throwing" a horse and the related techniques, like the tarp, have their place, but you have to train a whole lot of horses before you run across a horse that requires those techniques. It's the last resort before Alpo. As the years went on, I got so I'd skip doing those things and just send a dangerous rouge off to the killer. In my entire life working horses, I think I've thrown 6, maybe 7. It helped more than half, but it's a lot of work, dangerous and by now it will probably get you a visit from the animals rights types. Not worth it. Dogs gotta eat too.
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Post by jimmy on May 11, 2016 0:39:34 GMT
The story is this was a three year old stud colt that was rank. Rank, because he bucked, and kicked and struck and the hose water when being bathed. So the guy laid him down, and the horse came up fighting, so the guy threw him again and then "water boarded" him with the water and the tarp. I saw a video of the guy riding the horse later, and he was really proud of what he accomplished. In fact, the original photos he posted himself. The horse I saw him ride in the video was wore out looking, defeated and sore. And it was a dinky colt besides. But the guy was riding him without anything on his head, so many people thought it was awesome. But that horse was defeated and had not an ounce of anything left in him. So on that level, the trainer felt justified that he had accomplished something, and that the method was, in his words, "effective". I posted that I wouldn't have been proud of that. We weren't talking about a older, spoiled, ruined and rank stallion. This was just a colt. So I chastised the guy for being proud for nothing. If it were me, I would have felt that I had failed the horse. I talked about rank being relative. I have seen many so called rank young horses that were only rank acting because of the approach they were getting. They had nothing else to offer the horse but to overpower him physically. If that is all I got, then I feel like I should know more. I was told that if this trainer said the colt was rank, then he was dam sure rank. And many folks defended him. But I wasn't convinced. But I am not a person to indulge myself in group outrage. The other side of the coin is that people who know nothing about horses or horse training are enjoying their mutual outrage, and this guy is probably ruined, wishing he never would have posted those photos, because his name is being smeared all over social media, all over the world by now.
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Post by rideforever on May 11, 2016 4:39:37 GMT
I'm not one for group outrage either. I don't agree wit the technique, befit is predicated on the horse's fear.
The fact that it's a 3yr old stud? Seriously? He'd get brain surgery before I tried anything else. Geld him, and while he's feeling a bit sorry for himself, I bet you could get a lot done
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Post by horseguy on May 11, 2016 9:02:27 GMT
What I call, "throwing a horse" comes from the time when the job had to get done and the horse had to help, or it wouldn't get done. I'm an old guy and an old guy taught me to do it when I was young. Point being he came from that time when horses were indispensable for transportation, work and war. In two generations, his and mine, which is a total of well over 100 years horses have become pets or at best part of someone's recreation. The technique of "throwing" has to be seen in this context.
A three year old stud colt acting like a three year old stud colt would not have been a candidate for this technique back when it was more generally used. This horse would have been ridden through his resistance and learned that what ever he did and how ever he felt, he was going to be ridden because he was necessary for the work. Today we lack the riders for that and the time.
I don't think the technique is based on fear. Done correctly it's a last resort confrontation of a horse's escalation. The horses that "need" this technique are beyond fear. Along the way through experience or by virtue of their genetic disposition they have developed a skill of escalating to maintain control of a situation, a trait that makes them useless for work. They escalate quickly and effectively like a speed chess player.
The desired effect from the "throwing" is not to crush the horse's spirit with fear, but rather to stop the horse's fearless escalation. These horses that "need" this can always escalate with a proven move, but when restrained on the ground, unable to make their practiced moves, they have no moves. The tarp and many other stimulations are used to provoke a move and let the horse experience their inability to make that next escalating move. In other words, the technique is to give the horse the experience of coming to the end of escalation, something they have never experienced because the human always quit first.
Like I said, it's dangerous work to do this and in my experience, a little less than half the horses that come to this end of their escalation, when released show little or no change. I have always considered this non-result proof of equine mental illness. Others show immediate change, as if to say, "Oh, so that's how escalation ends." But neither type, in my experience demonstrate fear in the process. They show frustration, aggression, and a lot of other nasty stuff until they come to the end, but not fear, and I know what fear looks like in a horse.
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Post by rideanotherday on May 11, 2016 10:54:12 GMT
Laying a horse down can be a useful, last ditch tool. I don't see how a horse can learn much from attempted drowning.
We all know rank horses happen. Hell, we know training gets ugly sometimes. But have the sense not to advertise things like this. I'm pretty sure this guy isn't going to get too many colts in for training.
Training a colt that has behavioral problems (bucking, biting, kicking) is going to take longer than 30 days. It's going to take time to unravel the issues and lay a solid foundation. Sometimes, as Horseguy says, dogs gotta eat too. I've met a few horses that only deserve a long ride to Mexico in the middle of the night. There's a lot of nice horses out there that trying to fix on a truly rank horse isn't worth it.
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Post by horseguy on May 11, 2016 12:23:36 GMT
One of my favorite sayings, and one I unfortunately get too say often is, "You can't fix stupid." This guy is stupid on so many levels. I have never heard of using a hose in the process. I did know a guy many years ago who believed it was useful to urinate up the horse's nose after the horse gave up and laid still on the ground. The principle, in this unorthodox technique, was that in the moment when the horse realized the escalation was finished that the scent of a human needed to be associated with that moment. Primitive as it may be, there might be some credibility to this variation. But however it is done, it is the last resort. When I have done it I have said out loud to the horse, "I'm trying to save your life here" because the next thing for the horse in that situation is the killer. And that's why the guy is truly stupid. A 3 year old colt, by definition, is a log way from the killer.
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Post by rideforever on May 11, 2016 13:59:58 GMT
That must be one of the differences between men trainers and women trainers. I would never think of urinating on a horse.
But I do agree, a 3 yr old colt is a long way from a killer.
There are so many techniques out there. Apparently this guy has never heard of them
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Post by rideanotherday on May 11, 2016 14:16:15 GMT
One of my favorite sayings, and one I unfortunately get too say often is, "You can't fix stupid." This guy is stupid on so many levels. I have never heard of using a hose in the process. I did know a guy many years ago who believed it was useful to urinate up the horse's nose after the horse gave up and laid still on the ground. The principle, in this unorthodox technique, was that in the moment when the horse realized the escalation was finished that the scent of a human needed to be associated with that moment. Primitive as it may be, there might be some credibility to this variation. But however it is done, it is the last resort. When I have done it I have said out loud to the horse, "I'm trying to save your life here" because the next thing for the horse in that situation is the killer. And that's why the guy is truly stupid. A 3 year old colt, by definition, is a log way from the killer. Urinating up a horse's nose would be too incredibly complicated. Much easier to just rub your hand around their nostrils. Horses are as sensitive to smell as dogs, if not more so. Must be a marking territory thing. <shrug>
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Post by rideanotherday on May 11, 2016 16:17:19 GMT
I did know a guy many years ago who believed it was useful to urinate up the horse's nose after the horse gave up and laid still on the ground. Wait....did I miss another joke? ?
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Post by horseguy on May 12, 2016 12:49:45 GMT
No, not a joke. It was something a pretty good trainer believed in a long time ago. As to how to accomplish this bygone technique, it was when only men trained horses, get it? Times change, that's my point. So many training techniques have gone by the way during my lifetime. Some are sadly lost, and to others, good riddance. One example of a good lost technique is "poling" a jumping horse. I googled it to find a picture and could find none even after rewording my search several times. No pictures, but I foumd a discussion of it on an English forum where a rider had been reading an old book, "Training the Modern Show Jumper" by Elmar Pollmann-Schweckhorst, on training and posted this:
All the posts that followed were obviously by young people who had never heard of it. The above is a very good description of how it is done. A bamboo fishing rod was used.
And as described above, the poler would hide behind a solid wing jump
with the pole hidden behind the top jump rail. When the horse came over the jump the poler would tap the coronet band as the hooves came across the top rail. It is far easier to pole the fore legs than the hind, but with practice it is a skill that can be developed. It does not inflict any pain, only surprise in the horse. It is not dangerous to the horse but it can be a little dangerous to the rider if the horse overreacts, but I have never had a problem with it.
The practice was banned a long time ago as "cruel", but it is not cruel if you do it correctly. What is cruel is what followed after it was banned. Some trainers now use carpet tack strips
tack strips nailed to the top rail of a jump to cause a horse not to rub their hooves on the rail, which is probably banned now too but a trainer can use it and be unseen while doing so if they use a little spray paint to hide the strips. Poling, on the other had, is difficult to hide.
So much has changed since the 1950s when I began riding, but horses are pretty much the same. The biggest positive change I have seen is in equine nutrition. In medicine, old very effective remedies like Koppertox and gentian violet are getting harder to find. These have lost favor because they stain clothes and riders are now much more aware of their clothes. But I think the training changes have been the worst category overall. So many of the "new techniques" ignore the nature of the horse in favor of the contemporary idea of a horse, which comes from the human mind's desire to feel good, even if it means projecting insanity onto a perfectly harmless equine.
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Post by jimmy on May 12, 2016 14:48:06 GMT
Here is more from the man www.wowt.com/content/news/Horse-Training-Method-Draws-Criticism-And-Anger-379066591.htmlThe waterboarding claim is a bit over the top. However misguided, the he wasn't trying to drown the horse, but more along the lines of, if you don't like water, here's some more of it! Sensory overloading. I don't like this guy at all. But I think death threats, and people trying to "rescue" this horse from him are over the top as well. Do gooders are sometimes as tyrannical as the do badders.
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Post by rideanotherday on May 12, 2016 16:13:15 GMT
Here is more from the man www.wowt.com/content/news/Horse-Training-Method-Draws-Criticism-And-Anger-379066591.htmlThe waterboarding claim is a bit over the top. However misguided, the he wasn't trying to drown the horse, but more along the lines of, if you don't like water, here's some more of it! Sensory overloading. I don't like this guy at all. But I think death threats, and people trying to "rescue" this horse from him are over the top as well. Do gooders are sometimes as tyrannical as the do badders. I agree death threats and trying to "rescue" are over the top. Somewhere along the way, people have lost the ability to escalate. It has become this "I'm ok with everything" and goes straight to nuclear response with very little in between.
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