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Post by horseguy on Jun 5, 2016 11:22:36 GMT
There is a lot of information available about starting young horses. There are methods, books, clinics and blogs ranging from Parelli to old school hop-on-and-ride-the-buck-out-of em. There is not much available information about restarting a horse. By restarting I do not mean retraining, like from one career to another as you would retrain a racehorse for a new career. Restarting to me is defined as a horse that kinda, sorta was started but never really trained. These horses were typically bought or bred with lots of enthusiasm, handled for a while and then life got in the way, and then they were fed, received regular vet care but pretty much were left to themselves while the owner shifted their life's priorities. These horses can be 4 to 10 years old or more, might have been ridden a few times, might or might not tie well, and so on. They are not wild rank horses, just horses left to their own devices while being maintained as the owner "intendeds" to return to their training. Many never do.
I have bought a lot of these horses that have lived in this constant state of limbo between good intentions and not enough time. Working with them teaches a trainer to see how a horse's temperament evolves when there is some human contact through feeding and basic care but with no sense of purpose connected to a human. If a horse has a temperament of engagement, these horses tend to be the first to come up to the person with the feed in a pasture or paddock. If they tend to be the bully type, they hang back and watch the person feeding until they see how to "take over" the process and then do. Their lives are in the herd, even if that is just one other horse. They learn from the herd, which includes in part the person caring for them who's presence is usually fleeting, except for a few times a year when they receive more attention. By today's standards, these horses are not neglected. Thirty plus years ago they would have been considered neglected.
With trained horses that are being retrained, you start where they are and work with their skill set. I always, for example, let racehorses run, because that is what they do, until they get it that I don't care if they run or not. Then we start retraining. With these __________ horses (I need a name for them), I have learned to start at the beginning as if they were two years old. I start with the ground work of manners and basic handling, leading, picking up their feet, etc. In this first restarting work I begin to see their temperament. The bullies bully. The pleasers please. the leave-me-alone types ignore you but will push back if you go too fast or too hard. This first step is part basic training and part evaluation.
Many of these horses are very herd bound. They don't connect with humans who don't have food with them. They look around constantly for another horse when worked with alone in the barn. They will winnie and cry out and can sometimes become very agitated if alone with a human. If they act like this, I will tie another horse at a distance when working them in the first stage, to provide them with minimal relief from their separation anxiety. I want to get these horses rideable as quickly as possible, and ride them out over terrain in a group. There I will take them to the lead of the group and push them forward away from the other horses. The opposite way of having them in a group and hanging back to teach them to be separate only make for an anxious bolter as they can only think of catching up.
But before I can rider them, I need to go through all the steps before riding. Once they understand the trainer relationship of expectation through basic ground and manners work, I back them in a stall. Even if they have been ridden, I go back to the beginning to see how they respond to weight on their back, legs on their side and all that goes with riding. I introduce the saddle pad, saddle and bridle as if they have never seen one, and generally treat the process like a two year old training sequence.
More later...
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Post by jimmy on Jun 5, 2016 14:59:48 GMT
"With trained horses that are being retrained, you start where they are and work with their skill set. I always, for example, let racehorses run, because that is what they do, until they get it that I don't care if they run or not. Then we start retraining. With these __________ horses (I need a name for them), I have learned to start at the beginning as if they were two years old. I start with the ground work of manners and basic handling, leading, picking up their feet, etc. In this first restarting work I begin to see their temperament. The bullies bully. The pleasers please. the leave-me-alone types ignore you but will push back if you go too fast or too hard. This first step is part basic training and part evaluation."
A fellow once told me, work the horse where he is, and not where you think he should be.
The problem with retraining is sometimes, you don't like the behavior you get, but you don't know where or what it's from. You don't know if it's that horse's nature, or the way he learned to be. It takes a while to find out. So you have to give the crap you don't like a little time to work itself out. Many struggle with a horse because they are too busy telling him he is wrong. He in turn, remains defensive and troubled.
Some horses get labeled early on, when it was simply a lack of knowledge on the trainers part how to get the horse better. Recently I got a horse that the original trainer said was terrible about clipping his bridle path or ears, and you couldn't wash his face, etc. You had to sedate him. They left him in a constant state of, that's going to hurt. To me, they trained the horse to be afraid. It hasn't taken that long to get him where I can clip him and pour water on his face. But it did take some time, allowing him his defenses, while I proceeded with, well, I'm going to clip you anyway, and it doesn't hurt. They just enabled his problem, rather than showing him.
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Post by horseguy on Jun 5, 2016 20:32:14 GMT
... A fellow once told me, work the horse where he is, and not where you think he should be. The problem with retraining is sometimes, you don't like the behavior you get, but you don't know where or what it's from. You don't know if it's that horse's nature, or the way he learned to be. It takes a while to find out. So you have to give the crap you don't like a little time to work itself out. Many struggle with a horse because they are too busy telling him he is wrong. He in turn, remains defensive and troubled...
The difficulty with these good intention-low attention horses is there often is no "where or what" that their behaviors come from. They grow up like weeds and have no place to come from except being somewhere in between confined and wild. That is why a trainer needs to do some simple work with them with measureable goals that they can understand, with the goals not being the main part of the training. The evaluation is the main thing in the beginning because they are essentially not trained or untrained. The process in primarily to get a handle on their temperament and who they relate to training. The training work is a context more than a process in the beginning.
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Post by rideforever on Jun 6, 2016 13:20:18 GMT
... A fellow once told me, work the horse where he is, and not where you think he should be. The problem with retraining is sometimes, you don't like the behavior you get, but you don't know where or what it's from. You don't know if it's that horse's nature, or the way he learned to be. It takes a while to find out. So you have to give the crap you don't like a little time to work itself out. Many struggle with a horse because they are too busy telling him he is wrong. He in turn, remains defensive and troubled...
The difficulty with these good intention-low attention horses is there often is no "where or what" that their behaviors come from. They grow up like weeds and have no place to come from except being somewhere in between confined and wild. That is why a trainer needs to do some simple work with them with measureable goals that they can understand, with the goals not being the main part of the training. The evaluation is the main thing in the beginning because they are essentially not trained or untrained. The process in primarily to get a handle on their temperament and who they relate to training. The training work is a context more than a process in the beginning.
when I restart a horse, I go back to the beginning. I don't care about their background, I care about their future. I start over, where they already have the right answers, training is pretty fast, where they have holes in their training, we slow down to fill in the blanks. Kindness, consistency and a sense of fair play are my key training tenets.
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Post by horseguy on Jun 6, 2016 15:16:30 GMT
rideforever Since these kinds of horses that need restarting, as opposed to retraining, are so common today, what can you tell us that is unique to the process of starting over with a horse that was never fully trained but rather kinda, sorta started?
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Post by rideforever on Jun 6, 2016 17:52:13 GMT
I look for episodes of resistance, because that shows me where training is nonexistent or neglected. I spend time building confidence and trust. The horse needs to believe that I am a good leader, so we work on skills that help the horse be a good partner. As always, for me that starts with effective groundwork
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Post by horseguy on Jun 6, 2016 19:04:01 GMT
I look for episodes of resistance, because that shows me where training is nonexistent or neglected. I spend time building confidence and trust. The horse needs to believe that I am a good leader, so we work on skills that help the horse be a good partner. As always, for me that starts with effective groundwork I posted this topic with someone in mind. They have a few horses that have been turned out for a while and they expressed an interest in getting them restarted. I think they might ask, what are "skills that help the horse be a good partner" and how do you teach these skills? One way I do it the very beginning is I train the horse to pay attention to me as much as I am paying attention to them. I do this, I'll be walking them on a lead rope with me pretty much at their shoulder. I like leading green horses from there because it is safer for me in case the do something unpredictable. Through a series of trial and error attempts, I teach the horse to pay attention if I am moving or stopped, and if I stop, I want them to stop because they saw that I stopped. I lead them and when I stop, I do my stop very loud footed stop like a soldier coming to attention. It's one-two, stomp-stomp so they cannot miss it. If they keep going, I give a tug on the lead rope. Eventually most horses will stop on the stomp-stomp, after they get the concept, I make the stomp-stomp quieter and quieter until they just see I am stopping and they need to stop too. This is mutual paying attention or partnering in a simple stop when walking both on the ground together.
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Post by rideforever on Jun 6, 2016 21:32:36 GMT
I don't make cues any louder than they would normally be. If the horse blows through the halt/woah, I back him up. Depending on his response, I may back him up a lot. Somewhere between going forward and going backwards, the horse has to stop. He will learn to back up the second I turn to face him. He wil back up lightly and willingly. I don't allow a horse to back up with his head in the air either. It's counterproductive. A horse with his head up in the air is simply reacting. So I don't encourage it
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Post by horseguy on Jun 6, 2016 21:52:48 GMT
I don't make cues any louder than they would normally be. This opens an interesting area, the modulation of cues. Is there ever a circumstance where you raise, increase or otherwise heighten the a cue?
I ask because I was taught that a young horse (and these kinda trained horses are similar) experiences a lot of "noise" in his environment. This can be visual, tactile, audio, etc. In order to get the cure to be differentiated from the noise, and thus make it more easily identifiable for the horse, some increase of an aspect of the cue can make it stand out and thus help the horse sort out the communication. Once sorted out, the increase, whatever it's nature, is dialed back to "normal".
In the trainer's one-two foot stomping at the halt, it initially offers the horse a specific cue that exists in the context of many for the horse to use. It is thought to make it easier for the horse to become a partner with the trainer by means of making the sorting of stimulus easier. I'd be curious to know the counter productive side of this.
Every method technique has both advantages and drawbacks. I have found that it is useful to learn as many as possible because individual horses respond better to one or the other. This always reminds me of my dad who was a very good golfer. He was fond of saying how the rules permitted a player to carry 14 clubs in their bag, but the typical golfer knew how to use only 4 or 5 clubs well. As a caddy who lugged heavy golf gabs during hot summers, this had special meaning. Likewise, I think horse trainer have their favorite 'clubs' that they can work well with, and some they carry around like the almost never used 6 iron.
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Post by rideanotherday on Jun 6, 2016 22:16:46 GMT
In regards to cues, I have always found it easier to offer the soft feel first. If the horse blows through my first offer, then I give the horse a really good reason to take that soft feel.
That said, shaping behavior and changing the cue is a matter of repetitions.
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Post by horseguy on Jun 6, 2016 22:51:13 GMT
In order to be practically helpful to the horse owner with one of these never fully trained, probably older horses, what special modification for this specific kind of training process do you think would be especially helpful? I used the simple process of teaching the horse to stop when the leading human stops as a beginning because I think it is simple enough for any horse to learn quickly. What other specifics do you think would apply to this kind of horse to get them on a good training path efficiently and soon? By the way on a different side to this, it occurred to me that clicker training might be based in an attempt to help a horse in training sort out meaningful cues from all the "noise" they would be hearing, being new to training. I explained above how I used changes modulation to make my cues easier to perceive, but an unusual, probably not heard before sound like a clicker would be equally or more distinctive than modulation, and thus easier for the horse to sort out and use. Wow, I think I just offered a rationale for clicker training. Never thought about it in that way before.
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Post by rideanotherday on Jun 6, 2016 23:43:15 GMT
I don't think I do anything special or different for an older, partially or poorly trained horse. I break each part down to the lowest possible level first, so that I can find a place for the horse to be successful, so I can reward. Once I find where the horse can be successful, I have a place to be able to take the horse in times of difficulty. The ability to find that success through timing, balance, rhythm and feel is what makes a good horseman and a good trainer.
For instance, the horse I am working with at the rescue is distractable. Some would call it spooky. He's not. He's just not convinced that he needs to pay attention. I don't care for that. I offered him to stop on the lead by leaning slightly back, saying whoa and stopping my feet. He kept walking. I started doing jumping jacks. Humans don't do that in his world. So he stopped and stared. I told him good whoa and let him stand. Now, I had his attention. He was much more interested in keeping me where he could watch me. That interest in watching me made it possible for him to see the slight lean back and stopped feet. He could then respond to it in a more timely fashion. I know this horse isn't going to anyone who's going to really want a sensitive horse. But he can at least learn to pay attention.
People look at you strange if you do jumping jacks in boots and jeans in a dressage arena.
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Post by rideanotherday on Jun 7, 2016 11:52:10 GMT
Not like I hang my shingle out, and not like I'm going to, but my approach to any horse I don't know is to check out what they know. I'd say ask their current owners and handlers, but people lie. Often they don't mean to lie, but they do.
I'll start by basic ground work - will the horse respond to pressure on either side of his face? Is he resistant or sullen? Will he drop his head with pressure at the poll? Again, is he resistant or sullen? While I'm with the horse, is he focused on me or everything but me? Does he drag his feet going forward or backing up? If I change directions, do I have to wait for the horse to come along or get out of my way? After I get some baseline information, I'll start to ask the horse to work further away from me and then watch for him to stay out to the edge of the circle I put him on, or see if he drifts in. Which way is his nose tipped - in or out? Does he hang that inside hip and threaten or does he maintain a decent arc to his body? How does he react to me changing position from driving to holding? Does he pay attention to my focus? What is the least amount of change I have to do to get him to make a change?
I will try to mimic cues I intend to use when I'm on his back. slightly leaning back for whoa and maintaining my body at the drive line (slightly behind the horse's shoulders) and move to his hip to encourage free forward movement. I will "quit" driving with my body language and energy to tell the horse to drop down a gait or stop.
The horse will tell me what he needs to work on. Usually, it's filling in the gaps in fundamental skills that most horses need.
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Post by horseguy on Jun 7, 2016 12:37:03 GMT
Your jumping jack thing in my view is a upward modulation of human movement and affect. In the 1980s I was into Eddie Murphy. I had his cassettes in my truck and inadvertently memorized large sections of his routine. I had at that time a very talented Appaloosa mare that, like your rescue horse, just didn't give a hoot about humans. I had her tied in the barn one day and was trying to simply groom her, and she was swinging her butt and looking around like she always did, knocking into stuff and just being a pain in the butt. On an impulse I launched into the Eddie Murphy routine complete with his exaggerated tone range and punctuated rhythm of speech. Not a bad rendition, if I do say so myself. That mare paid total attention to me the whole time. Eddie Murphy groomed her that day and she paid much more attention to humans thereafter.
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Post by rideanotherday on Jun 7, 2016 12:49:07 GMT
People go out of their way to not scare horses.
I say scare 'em until you can't.
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