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Post by horseguy on Sept 11, 2016 16:41:14 GMT
On another topic I remembered Fred Harris, Master of Fox Hounds for the Cazenovia Hunt. When I me Fred he was retired and I was in my 40's. He was born in 1913 and he embodied the old school horsemanship. He was the last hunt Master I knew who wore a top hat while leading the hunt. It was tethered to his lapel by a cord, and when it flew off he'd reach back behind and put it back on at a gallop. Fred rode with an old broken back injury through the harsh upstate NY winters. He once told me he rode every day because he was afraid if he didn't he'd stop riding.  He like I was involved in US Pony Club back in the days when it was still part of the British Horse Society. Fred was once the main speaker at the State PC camp. By then he was president of the State Horse Council (at a time animal rights people tried to stop carriages in New York City. Fred pretty much slam dunked the folks trying to get the horses off the streets. I remember one of his "speeches" at the PC camp. His theme was, "Make your horse better". It was a simple message about each time we are with our horse. He explained the simple awareness it took to see something that could improve and work on it in the moment you saw it. HE w explained it was a horse owner's duty and a source of great satisfaction, to make your horse better. Fred grew up when horses were transportation, sport and a source of power on the farm. He had no interest in outward appearances. His tack was clean but never pristine. His clothes when riding were functional but worn. At a time when hunt Masters took pride in hunting a pack of over 40 hounds, Fred would call me up on a weekday with a blizzard outside and ask if I wanted to hunt a few hounds in the woods where the wind would not be so bad. He'd pick 8 hounds and we'd have a heck of a hunt and return to our trailers with snow drifted half way up the sides. Through it all, we'd make our horses better. There is nothing wrong in making your horse happier, healthier, prettier or improved in any way, but it is most important that we make our horses better. It's what they truly need. |
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Post by horseguy on Sept 12, 2016 12:37:20 GMT
We have choices. Often we have a choice between making our horse better or making him happier by indulging him. A common example of this choice is the horse that likes to rub his face on a person. Typically this is a horse that wants attention and is willing to rub his muzzle or head on a person's body to get that attention. Many horse owners enjoy this kind of physical contact with their horse. There are, however, times when it can be a problem. If you are wearing a new shirt that you like and you are at the barn and you encounter this kind of horse, he may have been eating grass and when he rubs his muzzle on you the green slime from his mouth can stain your nice shirt. This happens often at horse shows. A young rider who has encouraged this behavior finds their show coat a mess right before a class. Another result of this behavior I have seen is when this kind of horse meets a small child and knocks them over with their muzzling rubbing. The child, as a result, might be afraid of horses for life.
Horses are most generally appreciated when they have good boundaries. People are expected to ring a door bell or knock on a door before entering someone's home. Likewise, a well mannered horse will stay 18 to 24 inches from a person's body unless "invited in" by the person by them reaching out and stroking the horse's head. There is nothing wrong with a person "hugging" their horse or making body contact with their horse's head, but to make your horse better you must teach your horse to wait for a invitation before entering a person's personal space.
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Post by horseguy on Sept 13, 2016 12:26:54 GMT
One thing that is very common is a horse that will not stand still through the entire mounting process. I have watched horse owners for years "teach" their horses to move off the moment the horse feels the first foot in the stirrup. People are in a hurry or not conscious, many reasons, but over time these horses "learn" that they must move off immediately. Then the day comes that you are on a trail ride or doing something out in the open, and you must dismount. When you come to mount the horse again you discover that the ground is sloped, slippery, maybe covered is tree limbs. It's not an easy place to mount. You put a foot in the stirrup and the horse moves off, but you are not ready for the movement because the place is difficult. Bad things happen.
Another mounting issue is a horse being scared by something different. For example, a lot of young polo prospects need time to learn that a player mounting who is carrying a 54" mallet is not a threat. We start them by mounting first without a mallet and then we grab a mallet that is hung at a convenient location once mounted. Unusual clothing can be an example of an issue in mounting.
It is in these details of training that one horse is better than another horse. It is worth the time to remove all the potential difficulties of mounting. A horse that will stand still to be mounted every time is the horse you want when the place you are mounting is challenging or when any circumstance is different. That's when you find out if you have made your horse better.
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Post by grayhorse on Sept 14, 2016 4:35:02 GMT
It was a requirement of my drill team coach that our horses should stand while mounting. This is because at rodeos we could be asked to perform at the last minute and we needed to be ready. There have been a few times where the entire team is just hanging out waiting for a scheduled time to ride and wham something changes and we hear our names being called over the loud speaker to enter the arena. Point is you need to be able to get on and go. All my drill mounts stood well for mounting.
Now that I'm not on the team anymore over the years I've gotten a bit lazy about it little miss mustang will sometimes surprise me when I go to throw a leg over. It's my fault if I allow an inch it's a mile the next day. She doesn't move off but rather into me as a way to avoid being mounted I think. Little devil she knows she's supposed to stand still. I use a mounting block nowadays and she knows if I get unbalanced I have to step down and regroup and she wins for that split second.
What are some of your most effective training methods? I'd say for me it's patience... Something I tend to forget I think within a busy life or whatever. Your post is a good reminder that I shouldnt allow this behavior and take the time to correct it. I should make my horse better...again! Good post.
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Post by horseguy on Sept 14, 2016 12:21:57 GMT
What are some of your most effective training methods? I'd say for me it's patience... When teaching a horse to stand when mounted I use boredom. If I am using a mounting block or some cones to designate where I want the horse to stand, I bring the horse to that place and say stand and tap them on the left shoulder at the same time as a cue which I use every time to say "Stand". I put my foot in the stirrup and if the horse moves, I circle him back around and approach the place to stand just as before. I have found that if I do this over and over (it does require patience) eventually the horse gets it that the only way out of this increasingly boring repetitive sequence is to stand still at the designated mounting place. Next if the horse stands at the spot and allows me to put my foot in the stirrup, I get up and stand in that stirrup but do not swing my leg over. I wait to see if the horse moves for maybe 10 seconds or more. If they do move while I am standing in the stirrup, I go back down to the ground and do the circling back to the spot sequence until they do stand still. When they stay on the spot for both my mounting with foot in the stirrup and my standing in the stirrup, I will throw my leg over and sit for a while. If the horse moves off while I am sitting, I will dismount and do the circling sequence again until they stand still for the foot in the stirrup, the standing in the stirrup, and the sitting. When all this is accomplished through boredom, I will touch the horse with my leg to move them off the spot. Once in a while I will get a horse that responds to the boredom circling sequence with testing. They might swing their body into me, pop up on their hind legs, refuse to return to the spot, etc. Whatever they do is met with correction. As always, the horse determines the level of correction. If they become aggressive and perhaps try to strike me, they get the counter move to a striker, which is letting them know that when they prepare to strike they expose their belly and I show them that is not a good idea to expose their belly when being aggressive. For every means of avoidance to the process of circling back to the spot for mounting, there is a counter move a trainer will use. Amateur trainers should make corrections that they feel safe making. At no time do I use treats or bribes to get the horse to return to the mounting spot. They must learn that the trainer is in charge and giving treats conveys that the horse is in charge. I never let them think they are in charge. |
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Post by jimmy on Sept 14, 2016 14:24:38 GMT
I've been teaching a bunch of dudes how to ride. One of the hardest things to convey is how important it is that the horse stand and wait, and it is up to them to keep them that way.
It really drives me nuts they can't get this. I have made them get down and get back on, and they don't like it. I'm too bossy or something. They get on awkwardly, throwing the horse off balance, he has no choice but to move his feet. They drag themselves up there, and end up pulling on the inside rein which cases the horse to turn his but out and they end up facing left.
I teach on a mounting block or a fence, or log. The mounting block should work as a target. I don't even lead the horse up to it at first. I get up on the rock or log or immovable object, (I do not allow them to get off the mounting block and move it)
After I get up there, I lead the horse up to me, making sure he is lined up parallel. I lead them right by me until the stirrup is where I need it. My horse see me get up there, and move into position on their own. If they aren't quite right, I use my reins to make any adjustment. The reins are over their neck. I am standing over them, so I can use the reins like I'm on them riding them. if they are too far ahead, I can step them back with the reins. If not far enough, I use a leading action with the reins, kind of like throwing a loop in them forward, and the horse follows that. Or I can tap them with my foot, or reach over the saddle and tap them.
The result is instilling a habit. The cue is standing up on whatever it is. The just side up and help me get on. That's the goal.
Everything else is just crap.
I get their horses better, and then have to watch them undo it when they get on. They wonder why I'm so cranky!
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Post by rideanotherday on Sept 14, 2016 17:08:42 GMT
I've been teaching a bunch of dudes how to ride. One of the hardest things to convey is how important it is that the horse stand and wait, and it is up to them to keep them that way. It really drives me nuts they can't get this. I have made them get down and get back on, and they don't like it. I'm too bossy or something. They get on awkwardly, throwing the horse off balance, he has no choice but to move his feet. They drag themselves up there, and end up pulling on the inside rein which cases the horse to turn his but out and they end up facing left. I teach on a mounting block or a fence, or log. The mounting block should work as a target. I don't even lead the horse up to it at first. I get up on the rock or log or immovable object, (I do not allow them to get off the mounting block and move it) After I get up there, I lead the horse up to me, making sure he is lined up parallel. I lead them right by me until the stirrup is where I need it. My horse see me get up there, and move into position on their own. If they aren't quite right, I use my reins to make any adjustment. The reins are over their neck. I am standing over them, so I can use the reins like I'm on them riding them. if they are too far ahead, I can step them back with the reins. If not far enough, I use a leading action with the reins, kind of like throwing a loop in them forward, and the horse follows that. Or I can tap them with my foot, or reach over the saddle and tap them. The result is instilling a habit. The cue is standing up on whatever it is. The just side up and help me get on. That's the goal. Everything else is just crap. I get their horses better, and then have to watch them undo it when they get on. They wonder why I'm so cranky! First - I want to apologize because I'm betting you won't like to hear this. - I can tell you are good with horses. You work with what the horse can give you. But you do not do the same for humans. That is unfair. As a trainer of people (it's part of my job), I can tell you that if people aren't compliant it's generally NOT because they don't want to comply. Blaming people for not understanding what you are teaching will always lead to further failure. I would offer that you need to review your process in how you teach. Find out how your students learn. Getting mad at a student because they cannot successfully do what you do is unfair - they are there to learn from you! Find out what you need to teach the student so they can be successful. There is little more frustrating to watch than a student who wants to learn but doesn't "get" the method the teacher is using. Students who are paying to learn have more motivation than people being paid to do a job, since it's their money being spent! People fail to perform basic skills for a few reasons. Unwillingness is rarely one. Lacking the resources to perform correctly, lacking understanding or lacking skill are far more likely. When I am trouble shooting poor performance, I talk to people to find out what they understand about the task. Then I watch them perform the task assigned. I follow up with a review of the written process and compare it to what they said they understand and what they did. Based on your description of you getting cranky, I feel you are doing yourself and your students a disservice. Do you get mad at the horse for offering a different behavior than the one you are looking for? No. You don't. You find a spot that the horse can perform at, quit and come back to the skill later and try to build on what they know. If they are struggling with getting a horse to get into position, rather than use a horse, have them practice being the horse. Give them a headstall to hold and use the reins etc, to show them how it feels for the horse. Then ask them to reverse the position - have them back on the mounting block and try to use the reins etc to communicate effectively. How long do you keep trying the same thing and get the same results before you realize it's time to modify your approach? |
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Post by jimmy on Sept 14, 2016 19:12:51 GMT
I would agree with all your suggestions, except that I am dealing with a couple of people who think it's too much work. The student has some responsibility to try. When they are irritated that I asked them nicely to try again, they are no longer listening. At that point they are doing the horse a disservice as well as being unprofessional to me. I have even had one of them let me know when the lesson was over.
I'm on a salary. So they show up when they want to show up.
The thing is, I actually enjoy teaching. If they are trying, I bend over backwards for them. But it is when they don't care enough to be disciplined in themselves. There isn't much I can do about that.
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Post by horseguy on Sept 14, 2016 22:49:21 GMT
I would agree with all your suggestions, except that I am dealing with a couple of people who think it's too much work. The student has some responsibility to try. When they are irritated that I asked them nicely to try again, they are no longer listening. At that point they are doing the horse a disservice ... People are lazy. People are unconscious. To ride safely, let alone well, a student has to raise their consciousness. Lazy people are happy in their partial consciousness. They get irritated when someone "wakes them up" our of their unconsciousness. So why wake them up? Because "they are doing the horse a disservice" and that is the number one rule of horsemanship, don't do a horse a disservice. All the ideas and observations from rideanotherday are correct, except when it comes to teaching riding because the teacher must guard against anyone doing the horse a disservice. If a student cannot accomplish that because they are lazy, unconscious, entitled, whatever, I don't let them ride. I suggest tennis or golf. |
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Post by rideanotherday on Sept 15, 2016 0:16:28 GMT
I would agree with all your suggestions, except that I am dealing with a couple of people who think it's too much work. The student has some responsibility to try. When they are irritated that I asked them nicely to try again, they are no longer listening. At that point they are doing the horse a disservice ... People are lazy. People are unconscious. To ride safely, let alone well, a student has to raise their consciousness. Lazy people are happy in their partial consciousness. They get irritated when someone "wakes them up" our of their unconsciousness. So why wake them up? Because "they are doing the horse a disservice" and that is the number on rule of horsemanship, don't do a horse a disservice. All the ideas and observations from rideanotherday are correct, except when it comes to teaching riding because the teacher must guard against anyone doing the horse a disservice. If a student cannot accomplish that because they are lazy, unconscious, entitled, whatever, I don't let them ride. I suggest tennis or golf. You don't have to do the horse a disservice. Be a better teacher. Horseguy, you are talking about being a people sorter as opposed to a horse sorter. Everyone CAN learn how to be a horseman. Sometimes the mentor has to rise above to bring his student with. |
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Post by horseguy on Sept 16, 2016 2:22:23 GMT
You don't have to do the horse a disservice. Be a better teacher. Horseguy, you are talking about being a people sorter as opposed to a horse sorter. Everyone CAN learn how to be a horseman. Sometimes the mentor has to rise above to bring his student with. Everyone can learn, but that is not enough. They have to also want to learn. Ability is not will. If someone demonstrates the commitment to learn, I will not give up on them. But if they don't and therefore exist in a consciousness that excludes caring about the horse and in doing so they do a disservice to the horse, I'm done with them. I don't so much sort them out, they sort themselves out. |
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Post by horseguy on Sept 16, 2016 13:29:45 GMT
Anticipation is a good quality in a horse if this quality is trained into the horse to be collaborative. Typically a horse anticipates either too much or too little, if left to their own devices. A very smart horse usually anticipates too much. They have an attitude or willingness and wanting to please that can get them in trouble. A slow witted horse usually anticipates very little. I had a pony named Dusty who was a heck of an athlete but you could take that pony through a 6 jump stadium course a dozen times and on the 13th try he acted as if he'd never seen it before. Dusty was "in the moment" to a fault and every experience was new to him. He made a good teacher because you really had to be there with him in every moment.  Dusty Riley, on the other hand, was like a computer. If a situation was vaguely like something he had ever done before, and that could have been years ago, he took a few scant clues, used them to make a plan and took over with a feeling of ,"I know what I should do". While this was very useful in fox hunting, moving fast over never been there before terrain, sometimes he'd get it all wrong and we'd both be in a mess very quickly. After years of working with him, I finally got him to pause before he executed one of his concocted plans and "ask" by pausing if that was what I wanted. A good trainer works to make their horse better by addressing their horse's degree of anticipation, and makes the horse better by refining how and when the horse applies this impulse to get ahead of what's happening with an answer. This takes time, because these want to please quick minded horses can be very impulsive. Regarding the other type, the near zero anticipation horses, I am truly at a loss as to how to get them to think ahead a little. I have developed drills for the quick thinkers that mostly are made up of a set of three +/- possibilities. I take them into the multiple possibilities to see which one they think is the right one. When they commit to their selected possibility, I change the direction to one they did not select. This creates a level of doubt in the horse's mind that slows them down, and they eventually ask for help in picking the correct one, which is the one the rider wants. With the Dusty type horse, I have no drills. I just do repetitions and hope something sticks to their Teflon mind. If anyone has some drills or methods to heighten a horse's anticipation, I'd like to hear them. I've tried a few. One funny example is trying to use the three possibility drill on them. I would bring a Dusty type into three jumps, all different but equally far away and facing him, figuring he'd know we were about to jump one of them. But he would never pick one. Instead he'd just remain on the line that he came in on. If there was a jump on that line, he'd jump it. If not, he'd ride past all three. At times I thought maybe he was a Zen Master of sorts, but after years it was clear that he was just a space cadet with athletic ability. I sold him to a family of several kids and eventually they all got tired of having to ride him every minute they were in the saddle. I hope he ended up a lesson pony or a competition pony for a good highly focused kid rider. |
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Post by grayhorse on Sept 17, 2016 4:36:05 GMT
I rode tonight. As I was approaching the mounting block I told myself ok if she moves off make it a point today to do something about it. Got up on the block took the reins as if I was riding so I could adjust as needed (thanks Jimmy got that from your post)...put my foot in the stirrup and just hung out like that for a small amount of time, removed my foot gave the horse a pat.. Did this a couple times and guess what threw a leg over and she stood like the old days like a statue... I got on sat there a few gave her a pat and off we went. Kicking myself now hello Carrie it was that darn easy...ill keep it up  Probably before this thread I'd have just hurried and got on regardless not thinking much about it..so keep the reminders coming!! |
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Post by horseguy on Sept 18, 2016 13:24:16 GMT
Kicking myself now hello Carrie it was that darn easy...ill keep it up Probably before this thread I'd have just hurried and got on regardless not thinking much about it..so keep the reminders coming!! This is what I meant on another post about consciousness or awareness. Everyone can make their horse better but everyone doesn't have the consistent focus to do it. It's understandable. People work hard all day in their job an go out to the barn to restore their energy. They want to get something from the experience. It's why they own a horse in the first place. They also want to give to their horse. They buy the best feed, the warmest blanket, the top of the line shampoo, and so on. But when it's their time to ride and enjoy their horse, they often don't have the energy to make the little corrections along the way that makes their horse better. It's always been that way. I started this topic with a mention of my old friend Fred who was a busy guy. He had a business to run, he had the Hunt Club kennels at his farm, he was Master of the hunt, gave Pony Club clinics and was president of the State Horse Council. Still. Fred reminded me from time to time, "Make your horse better". I was younger then but I suspect he watched me hunt and work hounds, and he observed my intent to do my work in the hunt at the expense of my horse. There is always too much to do. That's the challenge of awareness. To an old school horseman like Fred, the horse was always the top priority. I appreciate his reminders of this to this day. |
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Post by horseguy on Sept 20, 2016 17:56:55 GMT
Another area that horse owners/riders tend to overlook is mouthy horses. Young horses like all mammals tend to be mouthy. They nibble, some bite, and it is often considered "cute". This is a boundary that must be established in a horse. No mouthy biting or near biting behavior can be tolerated. Horses have very powerful jaws and teeth designed to cut thick high grass. I child's finger mistaken for a carrot can end in an unintended amputation.
I use a simple finger flick to the lips to establish a boundary with a horse's mouth.
I set up a situation that will cause the horse to do their mouthy behavior and I wait until they do it and give them a surprising finger flick on the lips. Works great.
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