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Post by Jlynn on Oct 18, 2016 18:24:28 GMT
I was taking apart a couple of bridles over the weekend, cleaning and oiling them and as I was putting them back together, I got to wondering, on a western bridle, with a snaffle, does it really matter where the chin strap is? If its only purpose is to stop the bit from pulling through the mouth, it seems like it would work just as well between the reins and the bit as between the reins and the bridle.
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Post by horseguy on Oct 18, 2016 22:01:40 GMT
I was taking apart a couple of bridles over the weekend, cleaning and oiling them and as I was putting them back together, I got to wondering, on a western bridle, with a snaffle, does it really matter where the chin strap is? If its only purpose is to stop the bit from pulling through the mouth, it seems like it would work just as well between the reins and the bit as between the reins and the bridle. Very interesting question, thank you. "does it really matter where the chin strap is? If its only purpose is to stop the bit from pulling through the mouth." I am assuming a western rider, so please correct me if I am wrong about that. From an English perspective, the chin strap's purpose would not at all be to keep the bit from pulling through the mouth. If the horse was so resistant to a leading rein that might pull it through, an English rider would go to a full cheek, or a very large "D" ring, or a very large loose ring that would not, by its size and shape, be pulled through the mouth. But even then before using a different cheek, "D" or loose ring, an English rider would use a skillful rein of opposition (if you are using the left rein as a leading rein left, then the right rein would be held in opposition to the leading rein so as to not pull the bit through the mouth) to solve this problem. I would need to know if the western rider is direct reining or neck reining to fully address the question. I will say that if the rider is employing direct reining, the strap should not be unnecessary. If using neck reining with some leading rein, maybe some kind of preventive device might be important, but I'd recommend the use of a rein of opposition perhaps along with a larger "D" or lose ring depending on how resistant the horse might be to a direct rein. But that's my English perspective that does not include a chin strap as a means of preventing the bit through the mouth issue. The common correct use of a chin strap on a snaffle (typically a loose ring) in English riding is to have the strap there to touch the under chin when the reins are applied, by means of engaging the strap as the loose ring slides and moves upward. The usual reason a rider wants that strap to touch under the chin is as a reminder that the reins can lift the head of the horse, which is typically a hold over from the use of a leverage bit on a bucker. When we get a young horse that likes to buck, we give up the training snaffle for a while in favor of a leverage bit like a Pelham that allows us to interrupt the drop of the head that precedes a buck. Once we convince the young horse that we can interrupt the buck cycle by lifting the head, we return to the snaffle with a chin strap that engages when we apply both reins. This engagement of the chin strap is a gentle but constant reminder that we can and will interrupt the buck. Therefore to accomplish this reminding touch, which would be our English purpose, we want the chin strap between the reins and the mouth of the bit so that when the ring rises from the use of the reins, the strap touched the under chin. If you have not had this horse from its early training, and if you inherited the strap with the horse and thus do not know why was is used, you might consider that the strap is there as a counter bucking tool. Just a thought. Or maybe I just don't know that western riders use a chin strap to prevent the bit sliding through the mouth.
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Post by jimmy on Oct 19, 2016 4:49:28 GMT
It's just called a slobber strap. Meant to be used with a loose ring snaffle. It connects the two rings looseley. Adjusted right, if pulling out to the side in any dramatic fashion, it will pull of the other ring as well. It will prevent the other ring from pulling into the mouth, but if you are pulling that hard and that far out to the side, something is not right anyway. It is meant to be used in front of the reins specifically so it does not touch the chin or the jaws, or act like a leverage curb strap in any way. It is not meant to be a preventative device for any behavior like bucking or anything. It's just there collecting slobber, hence the name.
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Post by Jlynn on Oct 19, 2016 12:04:22 GMT
Interesting take on it all. Thanks. Jimmy - I thought the leather pieces that attached the reins to the bridle were slobber straps....
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Post by horseguy on Oct 19, 2016 12:56:48 GMT
Meant to be used with a loose ring snaffle ... if you are pulling that hard and that far out to the side, something is not right anyway... It is meant to be used in front of the reins. I edited Jimmy's quote to point to the similarities or overlap between western and English, particularly the part about "if you are pulling that hard".
While English riders will use a full cheek snaffle, these bits are not a justification for using force to turn a horse's head with heavy reining. Apparently from Jimmy's post the same is true for the slobber strap in western. The full cheek bit is used a lot in hunting. They are meant as a safety device for when you are moving fast through the woods, for example, and you fear your horse might be so intent as to not see a branch or something that might be hurtful or dangerous to his face. The full cheek bit allows the rider to literally jerk the head away from something bad. A more sensitive horse would not need the full cheek and just listen to the reins. A more aware horse would see the dangerous object or situation and move his head away on his own. But for many of the rest, a full cheek is a good idea.
I once had the vet out to the farm in the fall. In conversation about the local horse world he mentioned, "Hunt season is upon us, lots of eye injuries coming."
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Post by jimmy on Oct 19, 2016 13:57:56 GMT
Interesting take on it all. Thanks. Jimmy - I thought the leather pieces that attached the reins to the bridle were slobber straps.... Okay well you are correct, they are.. Slobber leathers I call them. Sometimes the snaffle strap is called a hobble. Some will also call it a chin strap, even though it is not used as one.
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Post by jimmy on Oct 19, 2016 14:07:16 GMT
I gets even more interesting. Some feel the pressure of a snaffle should come from the opposite side of the mouth or face from the direct rein. In other words, you lead with a right rein, the ring, or cheek of the snaffle pressing in on the left side of the face is what the horse yields too.
I try to avoid that. Since the snaffle is jointed, I want the first thing the horse feels is the snaffle lifting on the corner of the mouth on the same side as the rein I am using. To me, the snaffle is meant to be used on the corners of the mouth, and not the bars. That is why we work on the simple concept of the horse turning his head and neck when we pick up a rein. You can't do this enough at first. And I try to avoid taking my hand out too much to the side. If you pull with a snaffle way out to the side like a lead rope, for sure you will be pulling on the other side of the mouth. But you may have gone past the feel you were looking for. So you have to feel it out with a young horse, and wait just a little. I believe this confusion in the horse between which corner of the mouth to work from is caused by this mis understanding, and young horses fight their heads with riders who don't understand this. So then they start getting different bits and using leverage and the whole thing is just a mess.
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Post by jimmy on Oct 19, 2016 14:41:24 GMT
What is missing in many of these conversations on bits, is how it actually feels to the horse. Something we can never know entirely, but feel is something we are working on. It is more of a empathetic response, and also a close observation of what the horse did before he did what he did. No mechanical devise can address the nature of resistance in a horse. Because the device has no feel. The only feel that can be applied is supplied by a knowledgeable rider with good hands, hands that can feel out of a horses mouth by the very first closing of a finger, and make necessary adjustments from there. The more mechanics and leverages involved with a piece of equipment, the more our feel is interrupted, often.. Someone who has a desire to look for the cause of the resistance, or through experience, knows what is at the heart of it. . Unless you watch carefully which part comes into contact first, and what it is the horse first responds to. This is getting down to feel on a deeper level. This is what a thinking horseman should be all about. many times resistance can be countered by something quite the opposite what our initial impulse tells us to do. Sometimes, just when you think you need more, you actually needed less. Because you did too much to begin with.
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Post by Jlynn on Oct 19, 2016 15:33:03 GMT
Jimmy - I thought a hobble was the leather strap that went between the bottom of the shanks of a spade bit.... but as I have never owned or ridden in a spade, I plead ignorance.
As far as feel in the horse's mouth, that is what got me thinking about all this. When I was putting the bridle back together, I used my hands like a horse's mouth and had someone else take up on the reins to see if I could feel a difference. Although I could - it didn't seem (to me) to be a difference that would be a benefit to either placement.
And the slobber straps (the ones that attach the bit to the rein)- are they there to save the rein? Or to add weight to the ends of the reins and stabilize them - like weighted split reins - or something else?
All these questions from cleaning some old bridles. Just imagine if I took my saddle apart!
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Post by horseguy on Oct 19, 2016 16:15:53 GMT
Doing less is the bottom line, but how do we do less in the case of resistance to a leading rein? I tell students to stop using leading rein. Instead bring your hands closer together and first, before giving a direction or cue with the reins, soften the poll a little. How do we soften the poll? NOT LIKE THE GUY IN THE 3 YR OLD FOR SALE VIDEO! First we gather up our reins to create enough contact so the horse can feel us, not like a sledge hammer but like the tension you feel in a fishing line when you are using a bobber, light. As Jimmy said, we have to begin with empathetically feeling how the horse experiences the bit. All the horse needs is to feel is that you "are there" nothing more. Then you can use one of several techniques to soften the poll. Some horses like a gentle sway back and forth, some like a little "tickle" vibration, and some like a smooth, soft, easy pull. It's trial and error to see what relaxes the particular horse up through the jaw to the poll (read Boucher). Once you learn what a specific horse likes, softening can happen very quickly and become almost a square zero readying technique seamlessly integrated into the use of the rein that you intend. Each time you do this readying/softening, you do less and less until the horse's mouth relaxes into you hands like a held baby.
Sure, some horses just don't like to soften their poll. They might have a tense nature or been brought up at that Pennsylvania "ranch" where they "train" Western Pleasure horses. But regardless why, we can get a horse on a track toward softening through work. Downward and upward spirals at a trot is a good technique. Backing and turning out of backing up can be helpful. There are lots of exercises to teach a horse they do not have to be tense and resist. I use a lot of hill work, figure eights or slalom in and out of trees, where the horse has to soften his head and neck in order to maintain balance on a slope. In this kind of work I get to know when and how a horse becomes resistant and stiff.
A piece off equipment is never the answer to ending resistance to the rein - for the feel reasons Jimmy listed. Mechanical measures only increase resistance unless professionally applied. There are examples of the correct use of equipment to help a horse learn, but 99% of the time those devices are used briefly and only to "show" a horse the outcome the trainer is trying to communicate that he/she is aiming at. In proper hands some devices can provide an "ah ha" moment for a horse, but you'd best have a lot of feel to go there.
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Post by jimmy on Oct 19, 2016 19:49:28 GMT
Jimmy - I thought a hobble was the leather strap that went between the bottom of the shanks of a spade bit.... but as I have never owned or ridden in a spade, I plead ignorance. As far as feel in the horse's mouth, that is what got me thinking about all this. When I was putting the bridle back together, I used my hands like a horse's mouth and had someone else take up on the reins to see if I could feel a difference. Although I could - it didn't seem (to me) to be a difference that would be a benefit to either placement. And the slobber straps (the ones that attach the bit to the rein)- are they there to save the rein? Or to add weight to the ends of the reins and stabilize them - like weighted split reins - or something else? All these questions from cleaning some old bridles. Just imagine if I took my saddle apart! There are so many names for all things things, ask ten horsemen, you get ten different answers. Some spades have chain connectors and some a straight bar. Usually called a slobber bar or slobber chain. It's all about the slobber! The slobber straps you are talking about are used with a macate, . The purpose is mostly to simply supply a way to attach a single length of rope like a mecate to the snaffle, without having to tie a cumbersome knot there. The mecate came before the snaffle bit was used, historically in California. So the leathers were so you could take your hackamore rein and use it on a snaffle. Some folks like the drop (release) the weight of the leathers add to the mecate.
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Post by Jlynn on Oct 19, 2016 21:13:10 GMT
Yep, the bridle I was putting back together with the chin strap has a macate with slobber straps.
I really try not to use a "leading rein" as it gets me out of position (not a good thing on a young horse) and, if the goal is to have them neck rein (and for me, it is)the closer my hands are to each other, the faster that comes along.
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Post by jimmy on Oct 19, 2016 21:55:03 GMT
Taking all the hundreds, thousands of bits into account, and six basic rein positions, it still comes back to the same basic principle. The horse has to understand which direction you want him to go.
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