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Post by horseguy on Dec 11, 2016 14:44:44 GMT
I finally have a prospect to work with over the winter. Laura is helping me.
Yesterday Jacki, Laura's mom, took this video. It is important to know that the footing was slippery. The ground froze overnight and the sun had half melted the frozen crust by the time the video was taken. This 2 1/2 year old barefoot gelding only slips once while maintaining a steady trot both up and down the hill. His natural reach and suspension are pretty nice, I think.
He came from a breeder who was diagnosed with a serious illness right after he was born. So, he slipped through the training cracks from the time he was born until now. I wouldn't call him wild but he is in a very natural unspoiled state of mind. He is hyper vigilant. He pays attention to every detail but does not over react. Yesterday we used a string of pot lids to desensitize him in his stall. Picking his stall while he is in it was a challenge from the first day. I have used pot lids for decades. I get five pot lids at a thrift store and a piece of heavy baling twine about three feet long. I drill 1/4 inch holes in the center of each lid and tie knots on either side of each lid as I thread the twine through it to keep each lid in place, equally spaced, on the line. I start by going on the stall with the prospect and I drop the string of lids on the ground. Eventually I gently toss the string of lids toward the horse. I would not recommend this process to someone who doesn't know how to stay safe from a kick or bite from a horse in a confined space like a stall.
The question is how long does it take the horse to want to smell the string of lids? In other words, how curious is the horses about a potential threat? It has taken me weeks to get to the point that I can lay the string of lids across the prospect's back and lead the horse around the stall until the string of lids falls of the horse's back and makes the threatening sound as it hits the ground. Yesterday it took us about 15 minutes, the quickest I can remember, to go from a very typical startled reaction that caused intense flight to allowing us to lay the lids on his back and be calm when they fell to the ground. You can see his curiosity in the video. I chase him and he runs but soon stops and turns to look at me to see what I am doing.
For me there isn't a better prospect than one with good movement and a lot of curiosity.
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 12, 2016 12:14:15 GMT
He looks like a good prospect. I wish you the best with him!
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Post by grayhorse on Dec 15, 2016 4:28:08 GMT
Glad you found a prospect. Looking forward to updates as he progresses. Keep the video's coming, Jacki  |
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Post by horseguy on Dec 16, 2016 3:58:17 GMT
There is a story behind this young gelding. He came from a pony breeder who spent years developing her own "type". She has, after a lot of culling and sorting, one stud and three mares. Just when this guy was born she was diagnosed with a scary illness. He and his generation fell through the training cracks as a result. He is, as a result, smart and pretty wild in an untouched kind of way.
Of all his kin he has great movement and good conformation, with the exception of his head being somewhat too large. He is as smart and aware as any horse I have ever trained. The combination of his intelligence and his abandonment in his early life makes him a "case". Today was the first day in training I didn't cut him a lot of slack for being abandoned. I had a reasonable training goal and I expected to reach it. We were working in a box stall and he didn't like the level of demand I placed on him. He decided to swing his butt into me to push me around. At moments like this I tend to smile because every young horse that discovers he can threaten and push a trainer around by swinging his butt doesn't know that the trainer has seen this so many times before, while the prospect thinks it's the first time for everyone, because it's their first time.
Well, I have several ways to teach a young horse that when I am in a box stall with them, it's not a good idea to threaten me with their butt. He's a smart guy and after two surprising responses to his butt threats, he decided that it was better if he kept his butt away from me in a stall. After that we had our second lunging lesson and he walked and trotted nearly perfectly in the indoor, not in a round pen (it was too cold and windy to go outside here today).
As I get to know this prospect I have increasing respect for his breeder. My general sense of breeders is they soon learn that breeding somewhat dull horses makes their prospects easier to sell. Easy sells. But this breeder has developed a type that is very smart and has great movement. I like smart prospects. While smart can be bad for a trainer without multiple resources to solve challenges, it is welcome from me because together the prospect and I can cut through the BS more quickly to see how the process is going to unfold.
Today the butt swinging threat thing was a useful experience. This young and very smart guy understood that as smart and quick as he might think he is, this slow old man has seen it before and is not impressed. To control the training process, he's going to have to be a lot quicker and a lot smarter than he thought.
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 16, 2016 12:37:25 GMT
There is a story behind this young gelding. He came from a pony breeder who spent years developing her own "type". She has, after a lot of culling and sorting, one stud and three mares. Just when this guy was born she was diagnosed with a scary illness. He and his generation fell through the training cracks as a result. He is, as a result, smart and pretty wild in an untouched kind of way. Of all his kin he has great movement and good conformation, with the exception of his head being somewhat too large. He is as smart and aware as any horse I have ever trained. The combination of his intelligence and his abandonment in his early life makes him a "case". Today was the first day in training I didn't cut him a lot of slack for being abandoned. I had a reasonable training goal and I expected to reach it. We were working in a box stall and he didn't like the level of demand I placed on him. He decided to swing his butt into me to push me around. At moments like this I tend to smile because every young horse that discovers he can threaten and push a trainer around by swinging his butt doesn't know that the trainer has seen this so many times before, while the prospect thinks it's the first time for everyone, because it's their first time. Well, I have several ways to teach a young horse that when I am in a box stall with them, it's not a good idea to threaten me with their butt. He's a smart guy and after two surprising responses to his butt threats, he decided that it was better if he kept his butt away from me in a stall. After that we had our second lunging lesson and he walked and trotted nearly perfectly in the indoor, not in a round pen (it was too cold and windy to go outside here today). As I get to know this prospect I have increasing respect for his breeder. My general sense of breeders is they soon learn that breeding somewhat dull horses makes their prospects easier to sell. Easy sells. But this breeder has developed a type that is very smart and has great movement. I like smart prospects. While smart can be bad for a trainer without multiple resources to solve challenges, it is welcome from me because together the prospect and I can cut through the BS more quickly to see how the process is going to unfold. Today the butt swinging threat thing was a useful experience. This young and very smart guy understood that as smart and quick as he might think he is, this slow old man has seen it before and is not impressed. To control the training process, he's going to have to be a lot quicker and a lot smarter than he thought. Ok. I'll bite. What did you do that convinced him that threatening you was a bad idea? |
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Post by jimmy on Dec 16, 2016 14:56:29 GMT
If I think a horse has learned to push people around, be rude,and lean their shoulder into them, and push their butt into them, then my response is usually sharp and swift.
However.
With young horse that knows nothing, the clean slate, then all he knows is what he is born with, and that is to protect himself, if he can't get away. He may not understand restraint, or confinement, and the very presence of a person in close quarters would be a threat.
Very often, a horse first idea is to hide in a corner. It isn't always a threat, it is fear. Because the threat is actually coming from the person, just by being there. I am careful with a young horse how I approach this. If the horse was trying to kick me, I would get the hell out of range. The first rule is, be hard to be hurt. But my first default is not to assume the horse is being belligerent, and needs a correction.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 16, 2016 15:04:01 GMT
With a young prospect that knows zilch, I begin picking up the feet, etc. and when I can basically handle them, lead them and they get I am in charge on that level, I start the backing process that ends with a rider sitting on their back in a box stall and the horse being led in a circle around in a small circle in the stall. The first step in the process is teaching the horse to walk around the stall while you stand in the center of the stall. You have to "own the center". Some horses resist this circling around you and the typical resistance takes the form of them putting their head in a corner and swinging their butt into the center where you are standing (and sometimes kicking out at you).
I start this circling process with the horse free in the stall (no lead rope) to see if they will respect me standing in the center and them going around me. He kind of did but got bored or frustrated and began doing the head in the corner butt swinging to the center thing. Then I get a lead rope, attach it and when the horse stops in a corner and starts putting his head in the corner and swinging his butt toward me, I pull hard on the rope to stop the prospect from getting their head lodged in the corner. Some, this guy being one, resist the pull of the lead rope. He resisted with great vigor and reared up in a twist as his energy fought my pull on the rope. Since horses are strong in their neck up and down and weak sis to side, I had the physical advantage along with having done this many times before. So there I was in the center pulling his neck sideways toward the center, and his energy cause him to rear against the rope. Just as he was full up in the air, twisted with his energy pulling away from the center, I gave him plenty of slack in the rope and he went full force into the thick oak plank stall wall in a twist. The noise was booming. He nearly fell down. Immediately opon him gaining his composure, I pulled his head into the proper place so as to allow him to go forward around me and I touched his butt with the other end of the lead rope to motivate him forward, which he did in the correct circling motion.
Horses do not understand the skill or sophistication in that kind of move made by a trainer, but they get it didn't go well for them. He tried it one more time and I showed him the counter move one more time and he was done. He had a look on his face like, "How does that guy keep hitting me with that wall?" I'm a little sore today, but he probably is too. I got my first real paying horse training job on a real horse farm 49 years ago. The head trainer was good at what he did. I owe him a lot. There is no substitute for experience in horse training. When you have done something over and over for decades, it's as if you know what's going to happen. The prospect, on the other hand, is doing it for the first time. As old and weak as I may be, and as young and strong as he may be, I have a great advantage.
After that little disagreement, the session went wonderfully.
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 16, 2016 15:58:11 GMT
Perhaps I am sentimental and foolish. Asking a horse who has no idea of what you want and no frame of reference to "get it right" with no instruction and then setting him up to get hurt is unfair. You have an incredible amount of experience and surely know what you are doing. It's not what I prefer to do. Again, I know that you have years of experience.
I enjoy watching a horse learn. Just as I am enjoying watching my chessie figure things out. I want to see joy in their compliance to my requests. Dave gets treats, because it's easier to "buy" his compliance and make him realize that there are things other than himself to focus on. Horses learn differently. Their greatest reward is relief from pressure. I start with a rope halter on and prefer a larger space than a stall. I don't want a 5 acre pasture, but some room to move for both of us is more comfortable for me.
It happens that horses hurt themselves during the training process sometimes because they over react or get silly or resistant. I do what I can to limit injuries because that can derail the training process while they recover if the injury is significant enough. I suspect Triton will be just fine, as will you.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 16, 2016 17:33:38 GMT
"Asking a horse who has no idea of what you want and no frame of reference to "get it right" with no instruction and then setting him up to get hurt is unfair."
None of that is what happened.
First I walk them around the circle leading them. Then I get next to their head and lead them, then I get on their side and push them a little around me. There are always predatory steps. Then the time comes to get into the center of the stall and see if they will repeat the behavior. Usually I stand there in the center and raise my hand and snap my fingers with a very aware prospect like this one. He responded well the times before. This last time I think he just got bored, or maybe he is getting it that he is being trained and wants more of a say in the process. I don't know but he showed resistance in a dangerous way. That is intolerable and best pointed out immediately to a young horse.
Then I put a lead rope on him to make my requirements more clear and effective and my body more safe, and he escalated his resistance and tested to see what I'd do. He found out.
My basic underlying principle in training horse is that the horse decides how the process unfolds. I would prefer that every horse take my direction and comply, but of course that never happens. I correct, redirect and otherwise show a prospect what I want. When they refuse, I try a different option, but when a horse does anything that endangers me or them, I stop them immediately. I do not want them to get a foothold on aggression or controlling me.
It is typically at the point of stepping up to the next rung on the training ladder that horses show resistance. This too needs to be nipped in the bud because there is always going to be a next step and they must get used to climbing the ladder.
The walls of the stalls are high and strong. One side is where the stall door is and you do not want to do the "give them slack" when rearing routine on that wall. I carefully let him put his body into a strong safe surface. He was surprised that I stopped holding him up with the rope in his twisted rearing. Now he knows. He could have allowed me to use the rope to pull his head out of the corner and moved on, but he got stubborn and showed me his "strength". Now he knows where that leads. I think it was safe and all for the best.
I am a guy who has been crippled up for days or weeks by a horse that has swung their butt to the center where I stood in a stall. I had one swing his butt into me when I was standing and kick. That resulted in a collapsed lung and a bunch of shattered ribs in me. It's not good for the horse or the trainer when that happens. He's OK. And my record of injuring horses in my training is pretty good. Only a couple have been hurt worth mentioning, and that over decades.
The thing about him is he's very smart and I think boredom is going to be his problem in training. I really think he began testing because he got bored, which to a degree is my fault.
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 16, 2016 17:58:50 GMT
"Asking a horse who has no idea of what you want and no frame of reference to "get it right" with no instruction and then setting him up to get hurt is unfair." None of that is what happened. First I walk them around the circle leading them. Then I get next to their head and lead them, then I get on their side and push them a little around me. There are always predatory steps. Then the time comes to get into the center of the stall and see if they will repeat the behavior. Usually I stand there in the center and raise my hand and snap my fingers with a very aware prospect like this one. He responded well the times before. This last time I think he just got bored, or maybe he is getting it that he is being trained and wants more of a say in the process. I don't know but he showed resistance in a dangerous way. That is intolerable and best pointed out immediately to a young horse. Then I put a lead rope on him to make my requirements more clear and effective and my body more safe, and he escalated his resistance and tested to see what I'd do. He found out. My basic underlying principle in training horse is that the horse decides how the process unfolds. I would prefer that every horse take my direction and comply, but of course that never happens. I correct, redirect and otherwise show a prospect what I want. When they refuse, I try a different option, but when a horse does anything that endangers me or them, I stop them immediately. I do not want them to get a foothold on aggression or controlling me. It is typically at the point of stepping up to the next rung on the training ladder that horses show resistance. This too needs to be nipped in the bud because there is always going to be a next step and they must get used to climbing the ladder. The walls of the stalls are high and strong. One side is where the stall door is and you do not want to do the "give them slack" when rearing routine on that wall. I carefully let him put his body into a strong safe surface. He was surprised that I stopped holding him up with the rope in his twisted rearing. Now he knows. He could have allowed me to use the rope to pull his head out of the corner and moved on, but he got stubborn and showed me his "strength". Now he knows where that leads. I think it was safe and all for the best. I am a guy who has been crippled up for days or weeks by a horse that has swung their butt to the center where I stood in a stall. I had one swing his butt into me when I was standing and kick. That resulted in a collapsed lung and a bunch of shattered ribs in me. It's not good for the horse or the trainer when that happens. He's OK. And my record of injuring horses in my training is pretty good. Only a couple have been hurt worth mentioning, and that over decades. The thing about him is he's very smart and I think boredom is going to be his problem in training. I really think he began testing because he got bored, which to a degree is my fault. This is what you said earlier "I start this circling process with the horse free in the stall (no lead rope) to see if they will respect me standing in the center and them going around me." I am unsure how the horse is prepared to answer correctly with that method. I'm sure it would make more sense if I watched it rather than read about it. I think some is being lost to the written word / computer screen. I am well aware of the dangers of a horse who swings in that hip. It's one of the reasons I prefer to work in a somewhat larger area. I do not care to be trapped in that manner. Horses can do a lot of damage. I can't afford to be crippled that way, so I will choose differently. |
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Post by jimmy on Dec 16, 2016 21:54:07 GMT
It's great if a person can set it up so a horse comes against his own pressure, while, at least in the horse's mind, the person didn't have anything to do with it.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 16, 2016 23:51:22 GMT
This is what you said earlier "I start this circling process with the horse free in the stall (no lead rope) to see if they will respect me standing in the center and them going around me." I am unsure how the horse is prepared to answer correctly with that method. I'm sure it would make more sense if I watched it rather than read about it. I think some is being lost to the written word / computer screen. I am well aware of the dangers of a horse who swings in that hip. It's one of the reasons I prefer to work in a somewhat larger area. I do not care to be trapped in that manner. Horses can do a lot of damage. I can't afford to be crippled that way, so I will choose differently.
It's about the steps on the ladder. That quote above is where the step of true circling begins. The step before is the leading in the stall etc. that I explained later after you posted your take on what I was doing. I added more context. It is best, I believe, to assume that a professional trainer has done the required prior step to the step they are discussing. You assumed I set the horse up for failure, when all I did was keep my answer to your question contained to the step in question.
Setting a horse up for failure is not an effective training tool. There are exceptions, like setting up a jumping course that plays to the horse's weaknesses. Horses that are trained jumpers know when the succeed and when they fail. Some get cocky and it becomes necessary to show them they are not as great as they may think. But generally, we do not set up a horse for failure, just the opposite. This young prospect was set up correctly and when I took him to the next step he resisted. In a way I do not care why. I just needed to get him past his resistance. The way I do care is to understand where I failed, if I failed, and I have a suspicion that he got bored which is largely on me. Training horses that are very quick minded is demanding. You don't want to indulge them, but you don't want to bore them either, which is always a possibility with this kind of horse. Time will tell.
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 17, 2016 12:51:46 GMT
I didn't assume anything. I took what you said at face value and as written.
I asked what you did, because your methods are quite different than what I do. When you leave things out believing that someone will assume or infer steps that you did or didn't do, its an assumption on your part.
Horseguy, as much as I like having a place to read and talk about horses, I don't feel like this is really the place for me any more.
I hope this board is successful. Best of luck and Merry Christmas.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 17, 2016 15:22:50 GMT
I didn't assume anything. I took what you said at face value and as written. I asked what you did, because your methods are quite different than what I do. When you leave things out believing that someone will assume or infer steps that you did or didn't do, its an assumption on your part. Horseguy, as much as I like having a place to read and talk about horses, I don't feel like this is really the place for me any more. I hope this board is successful. Best of luck and Merry Christmas. Sorry you fell that way. |
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Post by Jlynn on Dec 17, 2016 15:41:24 GMT
I too am sorry. I was enjoying reading this discussion, in part because of its practical application - I clean stalls at a barn a few mornings a week, and in part because I learn the most in posts when people disagree and explain their differing opinions. It causes me to think about my own horsemanship and why things work, or don't work for me when they might work (or not) for someone else.
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