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Post by horseguy on Dec 13, 2016 13:10:43 GMT
I met a serious bird owner recently. My knowledge of birds is near zilch. As I watched a Amazon rainforest feathered animal out of its cage, I saw how it observed me. One comment on its behavior from me resulted in me receiving a real education. I learned there are bird rescues. Why? Because people buy birds and drive them crazy. Once crazy, they pluck out their feathers, become aggressive and become unmanageable. They get sent to a rescue. I was shocked to discover that there is a local bird rescue with over 100 birds available for adoption.
More informative discussion followed. Bottom line, human beings insist on imposing humanness on animals to the extreme determent of the animals. I have been dealing with this regarding horses for decades, now I find out it is more serious with birds, I'm guessing because birds are cheaper to buy and feed. Another difference between the bird world and the horse world may be that the bird world is doing something about it. There are many classes available on "Understanding Birds" that people can take, These courses go into detail on how to let a bird be a bird. The classes go into flock behavior, which is quite different than herd behavior, and other elements of the authentic nature of the bird species.
We really don't have that level of organization and offerings. Instead we have Horse EXPOs, Big Name Trainers, and lots of marketing all focused on the human owner's perspective. Jimmy posted about "Liberty Training", for example. What a crock. And who can ignore "Natural Horsemanship"?
I have read a lot of books on horses. Most were written by military riders. Those book have contained some references to the nature of horses but not to the depth or degree that someone like Ray Hunt does.
I'd like to make a list here of contemporary authors and trainers who's information and teaching is based in the authentic nature of horses. Please contribute if you can.
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 13, 2016 16:17:02 GMT
Chris Cox. Yes, he's a clinician, but he addresses riding issues and is by far one of the more sensible, straightforward types.
Buck Branneman. (sp?) Very much a cowboy and all about the horse. I'll come up with more.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 13, 2016 19:17:20 GMT
I like Buck Brannaman. I think the movie hurt him somewhat. While it made him better known, it was somewhat sensational. It evolved into the story of the crazy stallion that attacked his associate and the owner's relationship with her horse, which was beyond dysfunctional. That might have made for a more emotional "hook" for the movie and it highlighted Buck's patience with crazy horses, but it dragged us through his extremely difficult childhood. In the end we have a drama about a man who had difficulty going home to his family. The "connection" between the damaged horse and the damaged trainer was what came through, not his horse ability.
I say screw all that. He's a heck of a good horse trainer, and had the movie been about the positives, like his deep understanding of the nature of horses instead of his personal struggle, I think his views and skills would have become wider known and applied throughout the horse world. I suspect as a horse trainer he might have preferred less personal drama and more direct recognition of his insights. Our loss.
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jimc
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Post by jimc on Dec 14, 2016 14:16:26 GMT
I would nominate four clinician/authors that I have had some personal experience with. The first is Joe Wolter. He is a protégé of Ray Hunt. When Ray was asked for a recommendation on who to go to he recommended Joe and Bryan Neubert. I have attended clinics with both of these men and they are the real deal. I later bought a horse from Joe. That horse was the best started young horse I have ever ridden. I also like Mark Rashid. I audited one clinic with him, and rode in another. He was very helpful. His books depart from pure horsemanship but he always has some useful ideas. I enjoyed a couple of clinics here with Curt Pate. His book for western horseman was very well done.
JimC
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Post by horseguy on Dec 14, 2016 18:16:04 GMT
Joe Wolter, Joe and Bryan Neubert, Mark Rashid. I suspect they are all western trainer/riders. I will look them up on the net.
Can anyone name an English trainer/rider? I can't. On that side of the equation they seem to have gone the other way like the famous Big Name Trainers in dressage with their rollkur fiasco. There are a few "classical" dressage people going deeper into the nature of the horse but what they do with horses is so narrow. It becomes difficult o apply to the average horse owner's experience of horsemanship.
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 14, 2016 19:52:51 GMT
Joe Wolter, Joe and Bryan Neubert, Mark Rashid. I suspect they are all western trainer/riders. I will look them up on the net. Can anyone name an English trainer/rider? I can't. On that side of the equation they seem to have gone the other way like the famous Big Name Trainers in dressage with their rollkur fiasco. There are a few "classical" dressage people going deeper into the nature of the horse but what they do with horses is so narrow. It becomes difficult o apply to the average horse owner's experience of horsemanship. I can't really come up with "names" for English riding. Rolkur really wrecked it for me. Though dressage doesn't have the corner market on over bent horses (reining).
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jimc
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Post by jimc on Dec 14, 2016 22:10:02 GMT
The men I listed above are indeed western trainers. However, many of the riders at their clinics, at least here in Florida were English riders. They seemed to benefit from the experience as much as the western riders.
I think you would like the works of Michael Shaffer he is a dressage rider of the classical style rather than the modern competitive style. I read his books and attempted to use his methods on several horses. I was very pleased with the results. He has two books and many videos on YouTube.
Karen Rolf is based in Ocala, near here. She trained with Anne Gribbons, a recent coach of the US Olympic Dressage team. Karen competed successfully at the FEI level but became unhappy with the burn out and resentment that plagued her horses. She hooked up with the Parellis who wintered in Ocala at the time. That might not have been the best possible answer but, I have seen her ride beautifully, doing FEI movements bare back and without a bit. She has a book and gives clinics all over.
Mark Russel was a western trainer in Tennessee who spent some time in Portugal with Nuno Oliveira. He has a book and some DVDs out. Unfortunately, Mark died in a riding accident during a clinic recently.
Bettina Drummond, possibly the foremost student and proponent of Oliviera riding today wrote the foreword to Mark’s book. I have never seen her ride in person or observed her training methods, but her demonstrations are impressive.
I am sure the eventing world has some similar worthy horsemen, but I have only followed the Dressage and Western worlds. I know very little about eventing or huntseat riding.
JimC
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Post by jimmy on Dec 14, 2016 22:20:31 GMT
I live across the road from a top Holsteiner breeder. Will Simpson trains from there, as well as several other very good European riders. Just today I rode out on some tough terrain in the Santa Monica Mountains with a Danish fellow. He brought along his eight year old mini grand pre jumper. He believes in making areal outside horse, and this stud was more sure footed and agile and brave than most of the QHs I was with. My point is, we found we had so much in common with our view of horses. Him, from his European style dressage and jumping riding, and me from my cow horse, working horse lifestyle. The crux of our shared understanding was an understanding of the horse as a horse. I don't think he has ever ridden in a western saddle, or picked up a rope, or worked a cow, but this guy could ride, and ride well. I felt like I was talking to a horseman. Most of these people have never written a book. But it's about experience, and knowledge, and finally, understanding. We were cultures apart and from thousand of miles apart, and the one thing we had in common was knowing the horse.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 18, 2016 14:47:56 GMT
I am not surprised that a Danish rider would be a horseman. The Europeans have a long tradition of military horsemanship and take it very seriously. The words I would use to describe the good European riders I have met (except for some hoidy toidy dressage riders) are authentic and realistic. For example, if Parelli's games were so good they'd be using them in Europe, but they are not. They are too focused and too authentic for that sort of thing. Here in America, not unlike the people who buy a bird on a whim, we have a lot of "pretending" horse owners who use their horses to project some made up idea of who they are with a horse onto their horse. We have talked about this a lot here. These horse owners see horses as pets and they as pet owners, which for me is not at all like being a rider or horseman.
Archeologists credit the Botai culture in what is now Kazakhstan as the first humans to domesticate horses around 3500 BC. Therefore, horses have gone through the process of selective breeding for 5,500 years. This would mean they are not "natural" equine beings but rather selectively bred for use, which was war and work. The equine nature remains in contemporary horses and it is not at all like human nature, not the canine or feline natures. Equine nature is authentically unique with the addition of thousands of years of sorting through breeding.
Still, in complete opposition to these facts, people insist on projecting all kinds of other natures onto the horse, human nature being the most common, but that is very often "blended" with canine and feline pet natures because these are familiar to humans. What a mess for the horse, to be constantly bombarded with concepts that just don't fit who they are as a horse. As any horse trainer will tell you, some get down right angry, some become shut down and all kinds of other dysfunctional reactions to being squeezed into someone's intellectual or emotional made up idea box of who they are as horses. The bird lovers have responded to this same phenomena with "the nature of birds" classes that are not breed specific or anything specific i.e. not divided into categories like English and Western. They just teach birdness to humans. I don't see anyone teaching horseness in quite the same way.
I am thinking of doing this. I am thinking of offering horseness classes. Would these classes be welcome? Or would they be attacked and invalidated because they would destroy people's precious myths about who they are with their horse and who their horse truly is?
Here are some random thoughts on the elements of the classes:
Horses do not have feelings anything like human feelings.
Horses do not have agendas anything like human agendas.
In any decision a horse makes, memory is the dominant criteria for the choice. (if that were true of humans war would be rare and urban teens would not get pregnant several times, and so on)
Horses are not predisposed to fight with humans. Humans are predisposed to fight with horses. Horses learn to fight from humans at a much higher rate than humans learn how not to fight from horses.
Humans are primarily visual (of the 5 senses) in their preferred decision making input. Horses, as far as I can tell, do not have a primary preferred sensual input. Smell, sound, sight and touch tend to be balanced in the moment when they perceive a change in their environment that appears to require a decision. These and other principle differences would be grouped into class topics in order to help humans see that having facts about the horse's nature is far more effective that the popular made up concepts being passed around in the contemporary horse world.
love the whip in the mouth, wait til you see it
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Post by jimmy on Dec 18, 2016 15:50:12 GMT
WHAT THE HOLY HECK DID YOU MAKE ME JUST WATCH?!!!
What was that? What was up with the gelding with the erection the whole time? They use to make films like this with a donkey in Tijuana, Mexico! A bond? That's a little more than bonding! Feathers?
On a more serious note,it bothers me that these demonstrations liberty acts are presented as "a bond", as if all that is required is to have "a bond" with your horse. It's training. It represents hours and hours of work. I will give her that. If you go to a circus, it would be a really good act. But everyone would see it as an act, as really good circus training. But when it is presented as something else, some magical "bond", some mystical experience of unicorns...I want to puke!
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Post by jimmy on Dec 18, 2016 15:53:39 GMT
As to your idea for your horseness class, it would be more of a 12 step process to de-program and re wire popularist attitudes about horses. I don't think it would succeed.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 18, 2016 16:06:24 GMT
WHAT THE HOLY HECK DID YOU MAKE ME JUST WATCH?!!! What was that? What was up with the gelding with the erection the whole time? They use to make films like this with a donkey in Tijuana, Mexico! A bond? That's a little more than bonding! Feathers? On a more serious note, it bothers me that these demonstrations liberty acts are presented as "a bond", as if all that is required is to have "a bond" with your horse. It's training. It represents hours and hours of work. I will give her that. If you go to a circus, it would be a really good act. But everyone would see it as an act, as really good circus training. But when it is presented as something else, some magical "bond", some mystical experience of unicorns...I want to puke! If I had more internet html skills I would put a new mode on the top tool bar with Home Help Search Members Admin Profile Messages Fairy Dust. You would click Fairy Dust before watching videos like that and you'd get a feel for the magical bond in the video. Working on it.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 18, 2016 16:10:39 GMT
As to your idea for your horseness class, it would be more of a 12 step process to de-program and re wire popularist attitudes about horses. I don't think it would succeed. What you are telling me is we are dealing with addicts and their drug is so strong no one would want to give it up. I am getting a potential logo image for the program that has a woman with a rolled up $100 bill, snorting a line of real tiny little horses up her nose. Works for me.
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Post by jimmy on Dec 18, 2016 16:50:15 GMT
What you are telling me is we are dealing with addicts and their drug is so strong no one would want to give it up. I am getting a potential logo image for the program that has a woman with a rolled up $100 bill, snorting a line of real tiny little horses up her nose. Works for me. Exactly!
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Post by horseguy on Dec 19, 2016 0:29:33 GMT
I was curious to learn what it cost to get into the bird pet scene. I found out that a parrot can cost between $60 and $500, Macaws get into the thousands of dollars,. The monthly cost to feed a bird ranges from $10 to $60, for a really big bird. So it's a cheap pet scene compared to horses, which is probably why the local bird rescue has over a hundred birds up for adoption and offers classes on the nature of birds for prospective adopters. Still, regardless of the high cost, people want pet horses. Today I was moving horses around to help the owner before feeding. I was leading a 7 year old very handsome pony, gray with black mane and tail. This pet was not even halter broke. I was walking him down the aisle with another horse and he freaked, spun and banged into things. He was apparently bought by and family member as a present for a young girl in the family. If the saying, "It's the thought that counts" were true, I could buy into the horse/pony gift idea but it's not true. What counts with regard to horses is sense not "the thought". Gifting a kid an 800 pound animal that is not safe at the end of a lead rope is just dangerous.
I have to quote Ted Williams here, "If you don't think too good, don't think too much".
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