|
Post by horseguy on Jun 19, 2017 14:26:19 GMT
I was at the Diamond 7 Ranch on Sunday teaching a private lesson in one of the open outdoor arenas. It was a blazing hot day and a brisk breeze made riding almost pleasant up on top of the hill where these arenas are located. In the next area the International Equestrian Organization was having low to mid level dressage tests. After the IEO complained of our presence next to them, the management asked us to leave the arena where as boarders we had the right to be.
Dressage riders often get a bad rap. In the spectrum of equestrian activities, disciplines and pursuits, these riders who regularly refer to their riding as "art" and in other grand ways, tend to separate themselves from common riders. Over my 64 year riding career I have collected many an insult, intended or not, from these people when they have compared my favorite equestrian traditions of polo, fox hunting and eventing to their elevated endevor. My favorite is, "Eventing dressage is not real dressage".
Unkind horsemen refer to these dressed up shadbelly performers as stuck-up, self important, OCD, condescending and other aloof descriptions that many dressage enthusiasts receive as acknowledgement of their superior "sport". To me they are narrow minded and narrowly skilled narcissists with little or no regard for other riders. By narrow I mean that in any horse trials meet it is quite common to have riders doing stadium jumping rounds while other level competitors do their dressage tests in an adjacent arena. But apparently to a IEO dressage rider such distractions violate their limitless sense of entitlement. I suspect that yesterday's experience has made one more young convert, my student, to the view that dressage riders are an annoying lot of imposing spoiled children, many in adult bodies. And of course, this expulsion as a distraction once again confirms my long held opinion of these openly elitist jerks.
My oldest daughter, who teaches meditation, was visiting for Father's day. On the drive home she compared this dressage encounter to a mother of one of her meditation student's who told my daughter that her child needed absolute quiet to meditate. My daughter explained to the mother that quiet is the goal of meditation, not the required context. These dressage riders need the same advice but I had no energy to explain it to them, useless as an attempt might have been.
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Jun 20, 2017 14:45:38 GMT
There are a lot of looks at this post. When I posted it, I thought it would be provocative and get some responses but I guess not. Obviously the experience got me angry. Yes, a lot of it is me not willing to change. I do not accept the kind of enabling of rider they were imposing on me. Me leaving them so they could not have a rider and a horse distract them at such a distance is so foreign to me. It means they must ride completely alone. That seems such an intellectual way to ride.
The more you "get distracted" the more you must rely on your connection to your horse. In polo, horses are slamming into you and you must stay connected. You can't think fast enough to accomplish that connection so you are force to feel your way through those moments. Same when hunting. You might be sliding down a shale slope and someone does something in front of you to make you change your plan of how to get down the slope and across the creek. There are almost constant powerful distractions that either cause you to stop or to push through it all. Those dressage riders didn't want another horse moving about in the next arena. Quite frankly, if I was doing a test in their arena, I don't think I would notice a horse in the next arena.
So, my point is that I was angry that on a 90 plus degree day we were forced off the breezy hill, but I think I was more angry that horsemanship has sunk to the level that someone would complain about something so common and that the manager actually listened to the complaint and thought the solution was for us to leave a place we were entitled to ride.
|
|
My rider was in the ring
Guest
|
Post by My rider was in the ring on Jun 20, 2017 17:14:17 GMT
You are a flaming idiot! My rider was in the arena when you were giving your lesson and we did not complain even though I could hear you from where I was reading a training level test to a 7yr old. The IEO is a lovely organization that allows young and old alike to practice and apply what they have learned in a friendly show atmosphere. Myself and several other IEO members are appauld at your blatant disrespect to the organization and it's members. Before you post inflammatory remarks you should check your facts first. I have it on good authority that no one associated with IEO complained about any lessons taking place during the competition. Furthermore your broad generalization of dressage riders is ridiculous and offensive. As an event rider I find your narrow minded approach to equestrianism and horsemanship abhorrent!
|
|
|
Post by Not a DQ on Jun 20, 2017 17:54:59 GMT
Bob,
Well your post certainly was provocative but definitely misdirected. no member of the organization would have ever asked a boarder at a venue to vacate the area. The organization uses several venues in the area and it is not their policy to request limited distractions during their shows. Perhaps it was the owner of Diamond 7 who requested that you leave the arena because of their policy or perhaps it is because you are delinquent on paying your board and are being pursued legally to be evicted from the property??? Your reputation in this area is not one of much respect and quite frankly, neither is your opinion.
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Jun 20, 2017 18:11:29 GMT
You are a flaming idiot! My rider was in the arena when you were giving your lesson and we did not complain even though I could hear you from where I was reading a training level test to a 7yr old. The IEO is a lovely organization that allows young and old alike to practice and apply what they have learned in a friendly show atmosphere. Myself and several other IEO members are appauld at your blatant disrespect to the organization and it's members. Before you post inflammatory remarks you should check your facts first. I have it on good authority that no one associated with IEO complained about any lessons taking place during the competition. Furthermore your broad generalization of dressage riders is ridiculous and offensive. As an event rider I find your narrow minded approach to equestrianism and horsemanship abhorrent! The arena where we were entitled to ride was not roped off or in any way closed. While using it the Diamond 7 manager came to me and said that the "dressage people", in this case the IEO, demanded we stop riding. I find "no one associated with IEO complained about any lesson taking place during the competition" to be a twisted remark. Are you suggesting the ranch manager made it up? Or are you not taking responsibility for what happens at your events? And yes, I have blatant disrespect for people who feel as entitled as you all, and in addition I pity riders who feel obliged to interfere with the normal goings on at a horse farm, as you "dressage people" did, so they can manage to ride a dressage test. Pathetic. At the very least the IEO is guilty of enabling weakness in riders by allowing this kind of whinny self important complaining that imposes on others. All your remarks do is confirm the dressage rider stereotype of the self righteous narcissist.
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Jun 20, 2017 18:25:59 GMT
Bob, Well your post certainly was provocative but definitely misdirected. no member of the organization would have ever asked a boarder at a venue to vacate the area. The organization uses several venues in the area and it is not their policy to request limited distractions during their shows. Perhaps it was the owner of Diamond 7 who requested that you leave the arena because of their policy or perhaps it is because you are delinquent on paying your board and are being pursued legally to be evicted from the property??? Your reputation in this area is not one of much respect and quite frankly, neither is your opinion.
Sticks & stones from a nameless "guest". We value free speech here, so be my guest (oh you already are). I am in a dispute with the boarding barn millennial for her repeated failures to keep specific agreements and for not properly caring for my partner's horse. When the matter is concluded, you can read the details on Yelp and here.
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Jun 20, 2017 18:27:50 GMT
It's been a while since we had this kind of activity here. It seems the provocative dressage post is working.
|
|
|
Post by jimmy on Jun 20, 2017 18:39:22 GMT
I did not comment because it comes as no surprise. I have experienced first hand what Horseguy is talking about. Although I will refrain from I psychological evaluations of people I don't know, I have seen the narrow view and entitlement to having their horses remain undisturbed at all times.
I have been involved in many different equestrian disciplines, and the requirements of those necessitated that your horse be very much accustomed to distractions and noises and animals around them. As HG referred to, eventing horses are often doing their test while horses are galloping over fences in the near ground. Working Equitation, dressage trained horses must canter around a small pen full of chickens and a goat or two, or at least an artificial facsimile of animals. But of course, the response I get from "dressage riders" is that they wouldn't subject their "good" dressage horse to such things. I say hogwarsh. Your horse might be trained, but he isn't broke. And the training relies on a very carefully controlled environment, and any deviation of that environment is going to disrupt this supposed high education of the horse. So without a controlled environment, the training becomes sketchy. And then these superior trained horses fall apart under a stiff breeze....
|
|
|
Post by Laura on Jun 20, 2017 19:52:55 GMT
Ok, to the guests here. I understand that Horseguy can be blatant, that's just how he is, but both of you were extremely rude and I guarantee that neither of you "know all the facts" either; you just like to think that you do and put other people down in the process because no one can accept being wrong anymore. If your not willing to accept the flaws of an organization, then, in your words "My rider was in the ring", you are a flaming idiot. I was the rider in said lesson, so I know first hand exactly what went down. Boarders are allowed to ride in those arenas. A titleless man, presumably associated with the event, approached me and told me that, "We were being a distraction to the dressage riders and asked that we leave." I am a little more open than Horseguy, I just shrugged it off. My only problem was the warm up arena was also adjacent to the competition arena, in fact, it was closer to it than the arena that I was in. There was even a judges shack between the competition arena and the one I was in. There were at least five riders, that I could see, warming up at the time. So am I to assume that they somehow weren't a distraction because they too were dressage riders?? How can they not be more of a distraction? It honestly doesn't make any sense to me. It doesn't add up. I hate nonsense. Also, don't make your anonymous user name "Not a DQ" just to be a DQ that throws shade at people when you don't know their situation, if your going to say something, take ownership of it instead of hiding behind a username (I know who you are, but I'm making a point). I find you to be beyond rude. There may be people that don't like Horseguy because of his strong personality, but there are many others that like him because of it, and frankly, some people like him because he has the decency not to anonymously insult people he doesn't like.
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Jun 20, 2017 21:29:48 GMT
Ok, to the guests here. I understand that Horseguy can be blatant, that's just how he is ... There may be people that don't like Horseguy because of his strong personality, but there are many others that like him because of it, and frankly, some people like him because he has the decency not to anonymously insult people he doesn't like. I'll drink to that.
I learned early on that in the horse business you either had to be very good or be very popular to make a business of it. I increasingly had trouble putting those two things together because as we moved out of the 1960's it became unpopular to ride in what traditionalists considered a "good" seat. That was when equestrian sport turned into more of a social based business. As the dressage based principles were edited out of the Fort Riley Seat to invent Morris's Hunter Seat Equitation and as Pat Parelli edited out so much of the direct methods used in horse training in favor of people friendly games and horsenalities, there was not a simple way to communicate the traditional methods except explaining the flaws in these "innovations". I spent most of my client time with trendy horse owners and riders challenging their beliefs and fixing their screwed up horses. It caused me to become increasingly "blatant" (love that). It sure would have been an easier and more socially rewarding career in the horse world for me if it had not taken the turn it did when it did, but fate had me positioned right there as the equestrian world transformed from primarily a sport to principally a hobby.
I knew some very accomplished dressage riders back in the day. I respected them for their discipline and precision. I see very little of either in what has come to be called a dressage rider today. A good many today pick dressage because it is predictable, repetitive and slow. How many times have you heard an out of shape rider say, "I do dressage because there is so little cantering"? They are hobbyists in search of a dress-up outfit with, as Jimmy said, trained horses that aren't broke because they don't know what that is or how to do it.
One more thing, I didn't just post here about this IEO dressage entitlement stupidity. I wrote a very similar email to my original topic post above and sent it to every Officer and Board Member of the IEO to let them know that they made a hot day's work harder and that they were as I describe above. I was curious (not hopeful) to see if any would reply with anything close to an apology. No email replies, but I think what we see here is the response. These types always say the same thing: I don't respect them. Of course I don't. They read an email from me and that's their response? I don't respect them? Well duh. One of my favorite things I ever heard was a student who took dressage lessons from a local teacher who said to her, "Bob does not respect dressage. He only cares about it to the extent it improves his regular riding". Well, duh again, that's what it's for.
To all the young riders here who want to become correct, powerful and unified riders, Good luck! I mean that sincerely. My days are numbered in all this but you will have to deal with the nonsense for the rest of your riding careers. Stay focused on effectiveness, that is what matters. Everything else is secondary. And to the lurkers here who come to learn and don't contribute because you don't like me, I don't care. My work is to improve horsemanship whenever and with whomever crosses my path, like me or not. IEO, I was minding my own business on a hot day. Get over yourselves.
|
|
|
Post by Laura on Jun 20, 2017 23:32:31 GMT
I don't think Galway was even at Bob's for a year and if he was it was barely a year. He rescued that horse from an auction underweight and off the track. It took that horse months before you couldn't see its ribs. After you bought him, he got lymes disease. That takes months to recover from. Also you changed from foxhunting style to eventing with what seems to be more of a focus on dressage. I'm not trying to bash either one of you, but it took that two years for Galway to get to where he is from his auction state. Yes, Nicole is more focused on form rather than feel, so of course your riding changed, but with Bob he starts to intertwine form when you've mastered feel and unity. You just never got to that point with him I guess and Nicole skipped over it and you probably forgot it. Honestly I'd rather have a deep connection with my horse and make it look nice than to just look proper and assume that my horse is where it needs to be, physically and mentally. I miss all of you guys but also haven't turned a blind eye to one kind of riding just because I've found another. There's more than one way to do things and there's more than one side to a story. People need to stop being so negative just because they want to be the only side that's right.
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Jun 20, 2017 23:46:20 GMT
Laura, I deleted that post because it was off topic and posted by an ungrateful child who is not worthy of a response due to her lack of understanding. You are correct, training is a progression. Horses off the track need at least a year to get their metabolism evened out, and to learn how to track and engage, not to pull with their shoulders to lengthen their stride as race trainers teach them. The horse was starved to a skeleton when it was moved to the barn where it is now. I am happy that after the malnutrition and the other health issues that followed at the facility, he looks now to be well fed. That's what matters in cases like this.
|
|
|
Post by rideanotherday on Jun 21, 2017 10:48:14 GMT
I don't think elitism and selfishness is a strictly dressage issue. I do think it has a lot to do with why we are seeing a lowering of overall competitiveness. Nobody really wants to be around that type of toxic environment.
It's a rare person who enjoys being called out for certain behaviors. This certainly got people on all sides riled up, didn't it?
|
|
|
Post by Ann on Jun 21, 2017 12:15:02 GMT
Disrespect appears to be the overall issue. I see two sides being disrespectful to the other. Horseguy- I understand your point that dressage riders should be able to work and train with distractions. However, this appears to be an event and they are "taking their test". So it appears that you are being disrespectful to the event if you were a "distraction".
My rider was in the ring- Calling someone a "flaming idiot" on their post is obviously disrespectful as well.
I can see some of the members of this organization felt disrespected that you aired this issue publicly and naming the organization in your post.
Respectful horsemanship seems to be lost here.
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Jun 21, 2017 12:43:27 GMT
I don't think elitism and selfishness is a strictly dressage issue. I do think it has a lot to do with why we are seeing a lowering of overall competitiveness. Nobody really wants to be around that type of toxic environment. It's a rare person who enjoys being called out for certain behaviors. This certainly got people on all sides riled up, didn't it? I agree, elitism is not just a dressage issue. I watched the equestrian community change into the horse industry in the 1960's and 70's. Before then I remember a sensibility that I will call, "your horse is your horse". What that meant was people did the best they could by the horse they had. You still can see this if you look at some rural Irish fox hunt videos. There hunting is a community sport. Villagers show up at the town square with the horse they own, be it a cart horse or the fine mount ridden by the squire from the manor house. What changed in America, and we have done this to more than the horse world, was horses and riding became commercial. Money became the measure of "reputation" and people with money took over. They bought high dollar horses, which was good for some of us, but they also began the downward slide in riding standards.
By now commercialization is the norm. A young girl from a family with money can receive a gift of a horse farm from her parents and she is an instant "professional". People who know less than she about horses see her fine facility and go there to learn to ride. They buy a horse and become a part of the scene she has created not so much with skill or experience but with money. This story is all too common. I was involved with polo of 25 years and I'd estimate that nearly 50% of the players were there to "be a polo player" as opposed to being there to play polo. Fox hunts began to award "colors" (the right to ride up front) not based on riding ability but based on cash contributions to the hunt. I think dressage is perhaps the most commercial in the sense of displaying wealth because the horses are so over priced and the clothes are "so attractive". In other words, it's more a display than any other equestrian sport.
I ran my farm in a different way. The cars parked by the barn were mostly Fords and Chevys, not the special imports that scream wealth. Expensive riding apparel was not encouraged and what mattered was skill. Over the years there were incidents like the mother who brought her kid for lessons wearing a white fox fur coat in the winter and flimsy sandals with gold chains in the summer. This mom offered me a bribe to advance her daughter in the fox hunt rotation schedule because her precious little one "wanted to hunt more often". I told the mom to buy a hunt horse, a truck and a trailer and she could hunt whenever she liked. They left soon after. Regularly parents would lobby me to group their kids in with a friend in lessons and they were shocked when I said lesson groups are determined by skill level not social connections.
Some kids who showed dedication received "scholarships" or discounts on their lessons, hunts and other activities when money was an issue for the family. This could amount to thousands of dollars over several years. Some of these kids would go on to be good riders and were appreciative for the opportunities the farm gave them. But some went on to the horse industry, seduced by its aura of money and pretension of "status". The latter riders would often distance themselves from my heretical "blatant" views in order to gain greater acceptance and self esteem in the rich people's world. I never knew which kid would turn out which way, so I invested in both over four decades not knowing their future.
Apologizing in advance for my standard chorus, the proof is in the pudding and the international equestrian competition pudding for America is not good. All in all, American horsemanship is in decline. We must ask why were Morris and Parelli able to meet with such success in the US when that kind of commercial Big Name Trainer phenomena never took hold in Europe? I wonder what will become of the future of American horsemanship. I watched all the cavalry riders pass on, now the students of those riders are not far behind them. The Fort Riley Seat was the envy of the world for its simple elegance and effectiveness. In 50 years it has almost been completely eradicated. It was more than a Seat. It came with standards of respect for a horse and fellow riders and a rock solid deference to tradition. That's all gone now. Removing the "distraction" of another horse from a dressage test is proof. We have seen here in guest posts how adamant these self important elites can be about their status. They don't like to be told they are the cause of the decline. The cavalrymen are gone. No one ever addressed them as you have seen these IEO people address me. But that's just how it is now.
You lurkers can continue to lurk. But don't expect me to permit your insolence here. Due to the forum site's analytics I know how many of you there are, hundreds of hits per day when I and others are posting. You come and click because you learn. Good. I won't make this an exclusive members only forum but I will delete people's posts, as a have, when they do not have the skill, knowledge or experience to legitimately voice an opinion.
|
|