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Post by horseguy on Jun 21, 2017 14:57:11 GMT
We just had a kerfuffle over dressage entitlement and I think my post about the specifics of the decline of that discipline will probably send them running. Anyone can discuss respect, who's the idiot, elitism and so on, but who wants to understand how, when and why riding, particularly American riding, has lowered it's standards of effectiveness? We will see.
I asked the question, why did the rider's upper body position change from vertical to 5 degrees behind vertical over the past several decades?
From this
to this.
Which rider looks more balanced? More centered? Could deal better with a "distraction" like a helicopter landing (not uncommon by polo fields)? I ask because this is the effectiveness question. I believe all riders would have to agree that the military rider's vertical upper body position is more suitable for effective work in the saddle. After all, his life often depended on his ability to be effective with his horse. The modern dressage rider needs only to deal with flat terrain and even footing and limited "distractions" to be "effective" in their controlled setting.
If we can agree that the vertical is more effective and that behind vertical is less effective, the question of why decide to become less effective comes up? Why give up any effectiveness? For what gain? Is there any gain in return for the loss? Who gains? The horse? The rider? Someone else?
If people want to truly understand high standards of effective riding, they ask questions.
Does anyone have answers to these questions? |
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Post by rideanotherday on Jun 21, 2017 17:42:25 GMT
People are visual (this is why Horseguy almost always uses pictures to illustrate his points). What this means is those who do not truly understand the "why" they do the things they do instead of just "what" to do will always try to imitate what they see. That happened in Western Pleasure rail classes and in Reining.
Let's look at the "lope" currently in vogue
I never realized how difficult it would be to find a video of a natural, relaxed lope. I'll use a video of a horse being worked on a flag for in the early stages of training for working cattle because it shows a much more natural gait.
How would you ever take the natural, relaxed lope and make it into an artificially produced, mechanical, lame-looking, head bobbing "trope" (trot+lope) that you see in the first video? I'll tell you how it got there. Judges rewarded a slow horse. And people watching said...that horse won because it's slow. Well hell. I can make my horse go slow. And now we have this competition class where it's about going slow, with little to no emphasis being placed on correct.
I imagine the same thing happened with the "verticle seat" in dressage. Until judges stop rewarding incorrect riding or gaits by placement, then we will continue to see drift from true.
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Post by horseguy on Jun 21, 2017 18:36:07 GMT
All the conspiracy theorists will love this story. The European Warmblood breeders worked tirelessly beginning in the 1960's to sell their very expensive horses to the world, especially to the US. They got on governing boards, changed rules in some cases and otherwise made sure their horses were trendy must-have dressage horses. It was a super multi-dimensional marketing effort. Pretty soon you saw nothing but huge barreled Warmbloods at the top levels of dressage in the US and that further increased their desirability.
The problem was that women, who then were increasing numbers as dressage riders as men left the sport in the US, had problems straddling the big Warmblood backs and huge barrels. In order to get their seatbones into the saddle on these oversized mounts they needed to lean back a little. This made the riders unstable and then saddles had to change to keep riders in the saddle.
60's dressage saddle - low cantle no knee rolls
Contemporary dressage saddle high cantle huge knee rolls that allow a rider to "bounce and slide" between the two exaggerated "aids", the cantle and the knee rolls
It began as a trendy but ill fitting type horse becoming "the best" for the typical rider and that set up and second artificial need, a saddle to compensate for the first artificial trend. This is one example of the progressively deteriorating path that modern dressage find itself on. They demand our respect for this inauthentic nontraditional take on a many centuries old equestrian sport. Their innovations take riders further and further from the essential elements of riding like centered balance. And they don't like to talk about it.
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Post by rideanotherday on Jun 21, 2017 19:27:15 GMT
“Respect for tradition should not prevent the love of progress”. Colonel Danloux, Cadre Noir's legendary écuyer en chef.
Riding behind the vertical is less likely to be due to the horse and it's relative size or the saddle as by choice or education, I'd say more of an issue is to be taken with competition dressage and it's training tenets which have drifted extremely far from dressage as an art of war. Taken from "On Horsemanship" written by the Athenian historian and soldier Xenophon (c 430-354 BCE) "When mounted, the rider should sit on the horse not as if he were sitting in a chair, but as if he were standing with his legs apart. This will allow him to hold on with his thighs, and the upright position will allow him to throw a javelin with greater power. The lower legs should hang loosely from the knee, as a stiff leg is more likely to break should it collide with an obstacle. The rider's body above his hips should be supple, as he will be able to move more easily when fighting and will be less likely to be unseated if he is shoved. The left arm of the rider should be held against his side, giving him the greatest freedom and the firmest hold of the reins." It is interesting to note that this position is still considered the classically correct way to sit on a horse, regardless of the type of riding performed. When seated on the horse and leaning back, the rider moves away from anything remotely considered "classical" and straight into "competition" riding. It is a rewarded style of riding, and has no grounding in conspiracy theory.
I'm going to just laugh off the sexism and conspiracy silliness, because I already understand a lot about you HG.
Women are not the problem with horse riding or the direction it is going. Women are riders. Get over it.
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Post by horseguy on Jun 21, 2017 20:21:11 GMT
Talk about conspiracy theories, the implication that my observations are sexist is off the point, which is that the entire principle of matching a horse and rider has gone out the window. Every man or woman must now have a 16.2 H - 17H big round barrel Warmblood to be a "serious" dressage rider. Most US dressage rider's happen to be female and many are smaller than men. Is this sexist? I was taught that a person and horse must match. The Cavalry limited the range of sizes in both soldiers and mounts to make this work. Apparently it no longer has to work.
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Post by rideanotherday on Jun 22, 2017 10:54:45 GMT
Talk about conspiracy theories, the implication that my observations are sexist is off the point, which is that the entire principle of matching a horse and rider has gone out the window. Every man or woman must now have a 16.2 H - 17H big round barrel Warmblood to be a "serious" dressage rider. Most US dressage rider's happen to be female and many are smaller than men. Is this sexist? I was taught that a person and horse must match. The Cavalry limited the range of sizes in both soldiers and mounts to make this work. Apparently it no longer has to work. Regimentation doesn't extend into the civilian world well. I'm speaking as someone who was in the military, not just learning a riding style. Military riding size requirements for riders and horses were based in creating a visual uniformity which looks great in parade. I'm sure there are other militaristic reasons for the uniformity, but I'm not going to go into them at this time. Rider size to horse size is usually to optimize the capability of the horse and not overtax performance. A rider's weight combined with the equipment shouldn't exceed 20% of the horse's weight. I'm 5'9". I had BETTER get put on a 16hh+ horse or I look ridiculous for dressage. Riding cowhorse events, I'm just as happy to ride a horse around 15hh because it would be difficult to find a 16hh+ horse who is going to be competitive in cow work. Explain your formula for matching a rider to horse. I'm interested in what requirements you think make the match. A point to consider when looking at the difference in saddles - look at leg positioning. When your leg is almost straight - the "lengthened leg", you need the knee rolls and cantle to hold you in place because you are no longer in an athletic riding position with a leg that is appropriately placed under the rider. |
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Post by horseguy on Jun 22, 2017 12:36:17 GMT
One of the most interesting things I observed in the years I trained polo horses was about stirrup length. You could see every length from almost jockey short to straight legged. Everyone had a different idea of what was best for them in terms of riding and hitting. Due to the need to reach for the ball, there were no saddle rolls of any kind that might interfere with a difficult reach and shot, and almost no pommel or cantle for the same reasons. As in mounted combat, a polo rider had to be free to move in a very large range to accomplish their work. The use of the word "need" combined with knee roll to these riders would be met with a puzzled look. In fact, an Argie pro once told me that in Argentina young riders aspiring to a polo career must earn a saddle. They are required to begin riding and hitting the ball bareback. I therefore would respond that there is never a "need" for anything like the common knee rolls, cantles and pommels found in contemporary dressage saddles. I would add that there are dressage riders (many apparently because of so many of these saddles) who have not developed sufficient skill in riding that they might feel a "need" for such saddles, but the more real need would be to learn how to ride in a balanced united manner. Elitism takes many forms, large and small distinctions. Even the change in the 70's towards black saddles, minute a detail as that may be, sets the dressage rider apart from the wider equestrian community. The clothes, the breeds, the color tack and much more are all cues to express the exclusiveness that the dressage world projects. As was mentioned, this kind of elitist behavior is toxic. It divides. In polo, a sport that is thought to be exclusive, there is club polo and tournament polo, blue jeans and whites. Anyone with a two horse trailer can have a lot of fun in club polo without spending the fortune that tournament polo requires. I don't see that in dressage. There are lower levels but the pretense is part of it as we encountered over the weekend.  Informal club game But the equipment and the affectations are secondary to the changes in riding like the behind vertical position. It is an off balanced position that defies common sense physics. Once we depart from those realities, there is the chain reaction that includes equipment, bobble headidness, no distractions and the rest because when we leave authenticity behind we are adrift only in trendiness. The IEO people claimed that they were running some kind of informal "welcome children to dressage" event, but it turned out that our different activity detracted and we were formally asked to stop. I can say with confidence had we been doing the same thing on a 90 degree day next to a club polo event, people from the event would have been yelling at us, "Can anybody over there use a cold beer? It's pretty freaking hot!" |
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Post by jimmy on Jun 22, 2017 14:43:26 GMT
My dressage horse:   |
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Post by horseguy on Jun 22, 2017 17:06:55 GMT
Nice pics.  Oliveira on Levante, a Meneses stallion in passage at his old school of Povoa de Santo Adriao Your contact is reminiscent of the above rider who was perhaps equal to Col. Etienne Beudant. From me there is no greater praise. The horse is not the type that is considered correct for contemporary dressage, too small for one, but he looks relaxed and I love the bend in the neck that is a nice change from the more sectional bend a t the poll we have become used to. I like his relaxed reach too. Question, have you ever restarted a TB off the track with the Vaquero/spade system? |
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Post by jimmy on Jun 22, 2017 17:26:39 GMT
Nice pics. Oliveira on Levante, a Meneses stallion in passage at his old school of Povoa de Santo Adriao Your contact is reminiscent of the above rider who was perhaps equal to Col. Etienne Beudant. From me there is no greater praise. The horse is not the type that is considered correct for contemporary dressage, too small for one, but he looks relaxed and I love the bend in the neck that is a nice change from the more sectional bend a t the poll we have become used to. I like his relaxed reach too. Question, have you ever restarted a TB off the track with the Vaquero/spade system? Yes actually. There are some working ranches that specialize in taking OTTBs and making ranch horses out of them. There is nothing preventing a TB from being a great working horse. The issue is re training those horses that were not started with lightness or feel. So teaching them to operate on the slack is difficult sometimes. It is never as good as if they knew nothing else. They may not stick their butts in the ground like some QHs but they really don't need to do that to be a good stock horse.. I've seen several thoroughbreds worked a cow really well, and you can rope off of them as well. As to the subject of what happened to dressage, I think the introduction of the term "on the bit" and it's misuse, has ruined more horses than helped. The misuse of "contact". What they call "seeking the bit", is often mistaken as, "go ahead, lean on my hands" The good hackamore horse learns to carry himself. He learns a natural head and neck balance, relative to the rest of his body and his development. By the time a good one is in a spade, a shake of the reins may be all it takes to re establish balance. The set of photos was from a recent Working Equitation competition.   |
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Post by horseguy on Jun 22, 2017 21:41:00 GMT
Nice pics again. Good to see so much relaxation.
Compare the necks on these two dressage horses.
 This horse is what I call "hinged at the poll". There is enough flexation in the neck to get the horse "on the bit", meaning head vertical in the form sense, but the flexing goes down from the poll maybe 6 to 8 vertebrae. After that the neck is straight and I dare say looks somewhat stiff.
 This horse is flexing from the poll to the dock. You are hard pressed to see a straight stiff spot along the spine.
This picture shows a similar continuous flex from the poll down the neck and under the saddle and up around to the dock.
I therefore agree, the contemporary dressage idea of being "on the bit" can lead riders to achieve a head set and not the traditional "frame" of a continuously softened spine.
By the way, There was a question on the matching horses to riders in the cavalry. While horse color was matched for the parade appeal, the match I learned was the relative size of horse and rider so that their respective "conformations" matched physically. The top picture strikes my eye as the rider (who is not tiny) being on a big horse. To my eye and understanding Jimmy and the cavalryman are more correctly matched by size with their mounts. The idea was that the use of your legs and seat, when they fit the horse's barrel, was more effective if you legs were not too long or short, torso too long, etc. You saw a lot more small and medium sized horses ridden by small and medium sized riders.
Your statement that Off The Track Thoroughbreds, were "not started with lightness or feel. So teaching them to operate on the slack is difficult sometimes." Is masterfully understated. Race trainers believe that encouraging them to lean into the bit lengthens their stride (this is called the 5th foot by some) . They will wrap bits with leather to make leaning into them more comfortable. The jockeys often physically hold the up. "not started with lightness", heck, they are made as heavy as can be sometimes. I used to take the impossibly heavy ones on a flat gallop to a place that went abruptly to a 30 degree downslope. I 'd hang on their mouth to hold them up and just after we went over the brink onto the slope, I'd lean back, feet out front of me and drop them. This convinced the impossible ones that their race balance/heaviness could be dangerous and it was far safer to stay under themselves and not pull so hard and lean on the bit. It was a last resort but it moved the needle toward a slack rein.
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Post by horseguy on Jun 23, 2017 15:12:15 GMT
The IEO dressage post drove our forum clicks up by four times. Now the supporters of that group have stopped posting but the clicks remain at twice the pre kerfuffle level. Giving the people who appeare to remain and lurk the benefit of the doubt, they may have found that this is a serious horsemanship discussion, albeit run by a "complete idiot". While I have spent my career "blatantly" offending Hunter/Jumpers and dressage riders and trainers, I have done so with purpose. That purpose is to counter trends that lower standards of horsemanship. The fact that many American fox hunts now hire Irish Staff to run their packs reflects the desperate reality that US hunt clubs increasingly cannot produce riders skillful enough to assume the roles of Huntsman and Whippers-In. Also, since the transformation of American equestrianism from a community of riders and horse owners into a commercial industry, we have seen the formation of the US Equestrian Federation that sadly functions more as a lobbyist than a keeper of standards. That has been a disappointment. Oure US Eventing Team (bolstered by two Australian expats) has steadily sunk in the Olympic results under USEF direction. We are now regularly beaten by countries with fewer riders and horses than some American States contain. These are difficult to deny examples of our decline in horsemanship and there are more examples. By now this declining trend is so well established that it will be difficult to reverse without substantial effort and creative solutions. But as with any problem, it cannot be addressed until it is identified and acknowledged. That is why I complained to the IEO directly and here. Did I think I would receive IEO thanks for my insight, not at all. Did I expect the resulting derision and invalidation, of course. In fact, I welcomed it because it was at least an exchange. Typically, contemporary riders do not and will not address their standards when questioned. Here the USEF is to blame. With something like 45 disciplines and breed organizations making up the Federation, they function more in the role of cat herder and supporter of show, breed and equipment commerce that now drives the industry than a driver of elevated standards. The best chance for improvement may well be in these smaller organizations like the IEO. But first they must wake up from their delusion that all they do is good. What would improvement look like? I for one would like to see a return to breed diversity. I noticed some of that in the IEO ring. We see pictures of Jimmy's dressage quarter horse here presenting the correct relaxation and carriage often missing in Warmbloods drilled in vertical headset rather than flexibility, balance and self carriage. Perhaps the IEO would hire Jimmy to do a Vaquero horsemanship clinic. I'd certainly pay to learn more from him about this very different and effective tradition. Other out of the box ideas to expand the range of dressage support might include an affiliation with the Retired Racehorse Project www.retiredracehorseproject.org . Or the IEO could borrow a page from horseracing and offer claimer classes in their event lineups. Claimer classes are used in both horse and auto racing. It is a useful format for trainers (or car builders) to showcase their projects in development and to offer them for sale at a meet. It has the added benefit of leveling competition due to its ceiling price structure. If a trainer enters a $2,500, or $5,000, or $7,500 claimer class, anyone there has the right and ability to claim any horse in the class for the designated value of that class. This prevents circumstances where a high dollar horse can easily sweep a competition class. It also helps introduce more promising prospects into the pipeline of the discipline. It will require both new ideas and openness from existing organizations to reverse the distressing trends of our decline in horsemanship. I am probably not the person to directly assist in these efforts in the same way an Artic ice breaking ship is not employed as a cruise ship. But there are many congenial experts based in very effective traditional disciplines who would welcome and support the elevation of our riding and training standards if asked. But first, organizations like the IEO need to admit they require help escaping their comfortable mindset of superiority. Good intentions are not and will not be sufficient to chart a course back to the high standard US riders of all levels enjoyed a short 50 years ago. When young American riders return to work in prestigious hunt packs like the Cheshire Hounds, and an all US born National Eventing Team returns to the top three in the Olympics, these will be real indications of success. I have done what I could in this regard for the past 50 years. Yes, I have offended some, but also trained some, hopefully to act as heirloom seeds for a better future. Good luck, you know who you are.  |
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Post by jimmy on Jun 25, 2017 14:31:16 GMT
People are visual (this is why Horseguy almost always uses pictures to illustrate his points). What this means is those who do not truly understand the "why" they do the things they do instead of just "what" to do will always try to imitate what they see. That happened in Western Pleasure rail classes and in Reining. Let's look at the "lope" currently in vogue I never realized how difficult it would be to find a video of a natural, relaxed lope. I'll use a video of a horse being worked on a flag for in the early stages of training for working cattle because it shows a much more natural gait. How would you ever take the natural, relaxed lope and make it into an artificially produced, mechanical, lame-looking, head bobbing "trope" (trot+lope) that you see in the first video? I'll tell you how it got there. Judges rewarded a slow horse. And people watching said...that horse won because it's slow. Well hell. I can make my horse go slow. And now we have this competition class where it's about going slow, with little to no emphasis being placed on correct. I imagine the same thing happened with the "verticle seat" in dressage. Until judges stop rewarding incorrect riding or gaits by placement, then we will continue to see drift from true. I see you have the cowtrax that goes around corners. I have that system, but I don't have it set up for the corners. It really takes a dedicated arena for it. The y young filly is working pretty well and easy. |
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Post by Laura on Jun 26, 2017 1:23:18 GMT
This is a picture of Candy from today. It's on Facebook, so sorry if you can't see it (but it's also my profile picture). link |
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Post by rideanotherday on Jun 26, 2017 19:22:12 GMT
People are visual (this is why Horseguy almost always uses pictures to illustrate his points). What this means is those who do not truly understand the "why" they do the things they do instead of just "what" to do will always try to imitate what they see. That happened in Western Pleasure rail classes and in Reining. Let's look at the "lope" currently in vogue I never realized how difficult it would be to find a video of a natural, relaxed lope. I'll use a video of a horse being worked on a flag for in the early stages of training for working cattle because it shows a much more natural gait. How would you ever take the natural, relaxed lope and make it into an artificially produced, mechanical, lame-looking, head bobbing "trope" (trot+lope) that you see in the first video? I'll tell you how it got there. Judges rewarded a slow horse. And people watching said...that horse won because it's slow. Well hell. I can make my horse go slow. And now we have this competition class where it's about going slow, with little to no emphasis being placed on correct. I imagine the same thing happened with the "verticle seat" in dressage. Until judges stop rewarding incorrect riding or gaits by placement, then we will continue to see drift from true. I see you have the cowtrax that goes around corners. I have that system, but I don't have it set up for the corners. It really takes a dedicated arena for it. The y young filly is working pretty well and easy. That cowtrax and yellow filly are at Don Wright's place in CA. They do a good job keeping colts nice and relaxed. |
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