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Post by horseguy on Jul 5, 2017 19:44:08 GMT
"Thank you for your advice. I'll take it into consideration"
Why would someone come here if the already know everything? Someone please explain this to me.
I want to say more about Jim, the starter at the Bucks Co. Horse Park events. He's in his 70's like me, and a real horseman. He competed at Intermediate Level (the 5th level of 6 in Eventing, 6th being international and Olympics) while he was running a successful construction business. Jim could ride a good horse. This is a guy who hunted First Field in Ireland and did Staff work in the USA. It's been a few years. I hope he's still the starter because for me what he does is the old equestrian community functioning as if once did. So many horses get hopped up in the starting box and Jim is there to be an informal coach, to keep everyone safe and to keep the flow going. Jim doesn't need to be there on a blazing hot day or in the rain, but he is. He's there contributing and I'll bet these young kids have no idea who or what he is and they probably respond to his coaching with the "I'll take it into consideration" attitude.
Last time I saw Jim he said, "Things sure have changed". Yup.
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Post by Sup on Jul 5, 2017 19:55:11 GMT
I am with Horseguy on this one. The best bit is a "bit" of training. If you are considering a bit as safety equipment it is time to donate some entry fees. Barrel racers do it, cutting horse riders do it. When horses get competition-wise, it's better to nip it in the bud. The problem with going to more extreme bits and hardware is you eventually run out of options . I'm not a jumper, but I understand bit mechanics and training.
I spent a good bit of time explaining the training issue but this rider's horse is already trained. Suit yourself.
The future of American riding is very bleak.
But HG, you didn't know much of my horses training so I thought I would provide a little more information so people could fully understand the situation. Thank you for your advice.
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Post by horseguy on Jul 5, 2017 20:19:58 GMT
I spent a good bit of time explaining the training issue but this rider's horse is already trained. Suit yourself.
The future of American riding is very bleak.
But HG, you didn't know much of my horses training so I thought I would provide a little more information so people could fully understand the situation. Thank you for your advice. The first thing I asked you was age and history. No answer was given to that request. Your use of your withheld information to point out a flaw in my post is typical of a poster not authentically engaged in a discussion of horsemanship. My work here is to inform. With minimal information, I give the best available information based on experience, and what you describe is a profound lack of competition training. If, in fact, the horse has a long competition history, then you cannot ride a competition horse without a hurtful bit. Which is it? P.S. I am still waiting for an answer to my question on the "different pressure points" on which a twist bit works. If it would not be too much trouble for you, I'd really like to learn about those points.
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Post by Sup on Jul 5, 2017 21:47:11 GMT
But HG, you didn't know much of my horses training so I thought I would provide a little more information so people could fully understand the situation. Thank you for your advice. The first thing I asked you was age and history. No answer was given to that request. Your use of your withheld information to point out a flaw in my post is typical of a poster not authentically engaged in a discussion of horsemanship. My work here is to inform. With minimal information, I give the best available information based on experience, and what you describe is a profound lack of competition training. If, in fact, the horse has a long competition history, then you cannot ride a competition horse without a hurtful bit. Which is it? P.S. I am still waiting for an answer to my question on the "different pressure points" on which a twist bit works. If it would not be too much trouble for you, I'd really like to learn about those points. If you scroll up you'll find my answer to your question. She's 10. Competed through training level currently in novice and ready to move up. And I thanked you for your advice so I believe I was engaged in conversation even if I don't share your beliefs. And to answer your question that you can't seem to let go, the edges amplify pressure on the mouth, especially the bars and tongue. Is my answer acceptable enough or will you delete it like everything else that you don't agree with
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Post by horseguy on Jul 5, 2017 21:58:26 GMT
"the edges amplify pressure on the mouth, especially the bars and tongue"
Bars and tongue are "different points"? They are the same as any snaffle. The difference is not different points than the snaffle she goes well in at home, but rather harsh, painful edges on the same points. Do you know that pain tightens a horse?
"Competed at Training level and now ready to move up"? Is this thanks to the twist bit that she is ready to move up? What do you have against training her to relax in competition so she would not "require" this sharp edged painful bit?
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Post by Sup on Jul 6, 2017 0:05:30 GMT
"the edges amplify pressure on the mouth, especially the bars and tongue" Bars and tongue are "different points"? They are the same as any snaffle. The difference is not different points than the snaffle she goes well in at home, but rather harsh, painful edges on the same points. Do you know that pain tightens a horse? "Competed at Training level and now ready to move up"? Is this thanks to the twist bit that she is ready to move up? What do you have against training her to relax in competition so she would not "require" this sharp edged painful bit? If you have skilled hands in a ride I don't see how that would apply constant pain. I don't yank on her face when I get out on crosscountry, I'm actually very relaxed. I do agree with enough pressure ito can be considered harsh but my horse doesn't need it to that extent. When I got her I was showing beginner novice and she was showing training so our move up is because together, we are ready. Not because of the bit I use.
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Post by jacki on Jul 6, 2017 1:44:19 GMT
...so why go to a harsher bit? Is this not a behavior that can be trained? She jumps very nicely in her snaffle while I'm at home but in competition mode, she gets more excited and pulls against it. When you're out on crosscountry and they lose their focus it can get more dangerous with solid fences. ... One of the horses my daughter rides/trains is an OTTB mare. She goes well anywhere in a snaffle; however, when there's a big event on the premises, with trailers and horses everywhere, loudspeakers, etc. she goes into "race mode". My daughter also thought she needed a stronger bit at such times. But instead, Horseguy taught her ways to "take the edge off" the horse. If I remember correctly, he said all horses are different as to what works best, but that particular day he had her back the horse up a hill several times. He gave her other ideas as well and taught her to examine her surroundings well and use whatever was available. These simple things only took a few minutes. The next weekend there was another big show, and she didn't even have to use any of the "tricks" he had shown her - the horse remained calm. The tone, intent, etc. behind "words on a page" can be hard to interpret, but in the years my daughter has known Horseguy, she has brought many riding and training "issues" to him, and he has ALWAYS had a solution - a training solution, not a purchased solution. Not only does he really know horses, he is a very gifted instructor. I hope you will seriously consider his advice. I don't know how much time you have between dressage and stadium jumping or cross country, but if you are opposed to a "throw-away competition" as suggested, maybe you could find a way to "take the edge off" your horse in-between. Good luck. Jacki
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Post by horseguy on Jul 6, 2017 2:11:24 GMT
"When I got her I was showing beginner novice and she was showing training so our move up is because together, we are ready. Not because of the bit I use."
Traditionally your don't "show" Combined Training or Eventing. You don't "show" dressage either. This is Morris speak.
You "show" Hunter/Jumpers and you do dressage tests and you compete in horse trials or eventing. This language betrays the Morris influence. They "show" everything but when your are competing in traditional equestrian sport, you are not showing anything. You are doing something. This is an important distinction and their language has to do with visual forms they "show" visually.
Riders never show, they do.
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Post by rideanotherday on Jul 6, 2017 10:53:01 GMT
"When I got her I was showing beginner novice and she was showing training so our move up is because together, we are ready. Not because of the bit I use."
Traditionally your don't "show" Combined Training or Eventing. You don't "show" dressage either. This is Morris speak.
You "show" Hunter/Jumpers and you do dressage tests and you compete in horse trials or eventing. This language betrays the Morris influence. They "show" everything but when your are competing in traditional equestrian sport, you are not showing anything. You are doing something. This is an important distinction and their language has to do with visual forms they "show" visually.
Riders never show, the do. I think nit picking on terminology such as "show" or "showing" isn't really worthwhile. You understood her to be going to an event with the purpose to compete. Using "show" is acceptable, for brevity's sake. I still think that there are things that could be ironed out when the horse is in "competition mode" and is not quite as calm as when working at home. I have low tolerance for what I would consider crappy behavior. Some people are not bothered by it when their horse is "up" as it gives them more to work with at a competition. They aren't changing bits though. They either accept the behavior and try to shape it or they donate fees to be able to fix it.
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Post by horseguy on Jul 6, 2017 13:40:56 GMT
"When I got her I was showing beginner novice and she was showing training so our move up is because together, we are ready. Not because of the bit I use."
Traditionally your don't "show" Combined Training or Eventing. You don't "show" dressage either. This is Morris speak.
You "show" Hunter/Jumpers and you do dressage tests and you compete in horse trials or eventing. This language betrays the Morris influence. They "show" everything but when your are competing in traditional equestrian sport, you are not showing anything. You are doing something. This is an important distinction and their language has to do with visual forms they "show" visually.
Riders never show, the do. I think nit picking on terminology such as "show" or "showing" isn't really worthwhile. You understood her to be going to an event with the purpose to compete. Using "show" is acceptable, for brevity's sake. I still think that there are things that could be ironed out when the horse is in "competition mode" and is not quite as calm as when working at home. I have low tolerance for what I would consider crappy behavior. Some people are not bothered by it when their horse is "up" as it gives them more to work with at a competition. They aren't changing bits though. They either accept the behavior and try to shape it or they donate fees to be able to fix it. I can see how the "showing" comment could be nit picking. My intended point was that the H/J perspective is so pervasive it has taken over the entire language of English riding. The new President of the US Equestrian Federation is a H/J person. It now is American English riding. This happened very quickly in relation to the centuries of evolving horsemanship that came before it. Now it is uncontested and from this place of brand dominance you see the "openness" of its subscribers.
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Post by horseguy on Jul 6, 2017 18:48:10 GMT
"the edges amplify pressure on the mouth, especially the bars and tongue" Bars and tongue are "different points"? They are the same as any snaffle. The difference is not different points than the snaffle she goes well in at home, but rather harsh, painful edges on the same points. Do you know that pain tightens a horse? "Competed at Training level and now ready to move up"? Is this thanks to the twist bit that she is ready to move up? What do you have against training her to relax in competition so she would not "require" this sharp edged painful bit? If you have skilled hands in a ride I don't see how that would apply constant pain. I don't yank on her face when I get out on crosscountry, I'm actually very relaxed. I do agree with enough pressure ito can be considered harsh but my horse doesn't need it to that extent. When I got her I was showing beginner novice and she was showing training so our move up is because together, we are ready. Not because of the bit I use. "If you have skilled hands..." ? A rider with skilled hands doesn't "need" a twist bit to get brakes.
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