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Post by grayhorse on Dec 15, 2015 18:49:35 GMT
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Post by horseguy on Dec 15, 2015 20:27:15 GMT
Thanks for putting up the youtube links. What I did is use the 6th icon from the right above to imbed them. The icon looks like this looks like one this.
Here are the videos.
Both these videos are pretty relaxed. This first one looks to be the lesser of the two to me. When I watch the horse's ears in the approach the horse is paying attention to you, the rider, and then the jump, then you, then the jump, back and forth. The approach is rhythmic up until the stride before the last approach stride where the horse makes a subtle adjustment. I read all this as general indecision or lack of firm commitment in the horse along with some laziness. The subtle adjustment in the stride rhythm rocks you just a tad and you then jump ahead of the horse's movement just a tiny bit as you release the horse.
I don't see tension as I have is some of your prior tight elbow jump pictures. But I don't see unity either. I see an indecisive horse looking for direction regarding commitment. I am guessing the horse is asking, "Are we going?" You'd think that any horse on a long straight approach would assume you are going, but I do not see that firmly established in this approach. You are not fully united with your horse in the approach and I am guessing the horse wants more connection.
But again, you do not look tense, just separated in a subtle way.
In this second video I see more unity between you and the horse. You and the horse are both looking relaxed and unified. It is the better of the two. In fact, you appear so relaxed that you get a tad behind in the jump, which I am OK with. In the landing you rock a little forward in an equal and opposite reaction to being left behind. All this is subtle but it shows relaxation. Note that in this approach the horse locks onto the jump with his/her ears forward and keeps them there. This is good, no question of "are we going?" Maybe this is a later jump in the ride and he/she knows you are in a jumping mode now and confident that he/she will be asked to jump. My general summary is that these are pretty good jumps, not perfect and your horse needs more active direction in terms of commitment. You both look sufficiently relaxed to accomplish a good jump. I can give you some commitment exercises that will make you both more actively aware and clear about commitment in the approach. |
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Post by grayhorse on Dec 15, 2015 22:48:15 GMT
Wow that is better than I thought. Good to hear. If I remember how I was riding that day I would say determined...this was my first time jumping BN jumps and the first few my horse really celebrated with some neck twirls and crow hops...she bolted on me once too but it was half hearted as she realizes bolting is a lot of work and calms down quickly, its just one of her "tests". I also had a few hard stops the kind my trainer calls dirty stops. She gives me every indication shes gonna jump waits for me to get into jump position and in that split second stops, feels me get a little unbalanced from the sudden stop and then drops her shoulder and spins out to the right. I rode out a few of these first and I remember being worried jumping the two jumps in the video not sure what she might do. I do tend to ride a little behind because of this I try to wait and not tip her off. That's the trick with my mare the moment you start trusting her that is when she tries something...somedays she is like riding two different horses she can be a freight train or really wiggly and not wanting to ride forward. I can get both personalities in the same ride depending on the direction we are riding (if she wants to go that way or not) and it is a challenge, its why I get tense. I am glad it is not as bad as I was thinking, tho.
The first video was a small jump something I consider easy, that is probably why it wasn't as committed, I wasn't riding as hard the same bad habit of mine that got my finger broke! And yes would love to hear about some exercises that will help me...I truly appreciate the feedback and I do listen and try to apply it.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 16, 2015 0:08:45 GMT
If I remember how I was riding that day I would say determined...this was my first time jumping BN jumps and the first few my horse really celebrated with some neck twirls and crow hops...she bolted on me once too but it was half hearted as she realizes bolting is a lot of work and calms down quickly, its just one of her "tests". I also had a few hard stops the kind my trainer calls dirty stops. She gives me every indication shes gonna jump waits for me to get into jump position and in that split second stops, feels me get a little unbalanced from the sudden stop and then drops her shoulder and spins out to the right. I rode out a few of these first and I remember being worried jumping the two jumps in the video not sure what she might do. I do tend to ride a little behind because of this I try to wait and not tip her off. That's the trick with my mare the moment you start trusting her that is when she tries something...somedays she is like riding two different horses she can be a freight train or really wiggly and not wanting to ride forward. I can get both personalities in the same ride depending on the direction we are riding (if she wants to go that way or not) and it is a challenge, its why I get tense.
You wrote, "I do tend to ride a little behind because of this I try to wait and not tip her off. That's the trick with my mare the moment you start trusting her that is when she tries something". That's a work-around. Sometimes we have to do work-arounds in order to get the scope of a horse's way of being, but it's usually limited to a diagnostic phase. If you ride a horse continually tricking it all the time, something is really wrong. I also bolded your quote about you not knowing what she will do. That is what I mean by diagnostics. You need to know that she will do. Very few horses are truly unpredictable. What you see is what you get. If a horse appears unpredictable to you, you are not seeing something.
The ears give you a lot of info with this horse. When she is locked on, ears pointed consistently at the jump, she does not do her little stride/rhythm change going into the takeoff area, at least based on the two videos. Get more info on that.
Jumping is all about commitment. Commitment is all about unity. Unity is all about intensity in my book. I see you both kinda, sorta, going to a jump together. I don't see intensity (not to be confused with tension) so I can not back out of that into unity and then I cannot back out of that void into commitment. To use the square one, proceeded by square zero, Ray Hunt language, you are missing the necessary unity or square zero to get real commitment, and I'll add a step before square zero here, which is your mindset of "being worried jumping the two jumps in the video not sure what she might do". Being worried is reactive and reactive is not intense in the truest sense of the meaning. You have to get past that reactive worrying place if you want to train this horse.
One of the first things I learned as a kid riding was, "ask, tell, demand". It doesn't matter what it is, a jump, a transition, whatever. First you ask a horse. If that doesn't work, you tell them. If that doesn't work, you demand it. Horses that have been trained in ask, tell, demand do not test. They don't like tell or demand, so they respond to ask. Sure this is "mean" if you are Parelli-ing your horse, but if you are making a trusted mount, it's what we do.
Start with the smallest thing that the horse does in testing you. It might be when you lead her and you stop walking and she keeps going. When you stop, ask her to stop and if she doesn't, tell her to stop. Maybe that means a snap of the lead rope on her nose or a harsh word if she is voice sensitive. Just make sure that tell is a step up from ask. Lead means be the leader. Being reactive is being the follower. If tell does not do the trick, then demand that she stops when you stop. That can take many forms. One I use is if I am leading a horse that does not stop when I stop with a tell is I will step in front of them and see if they will bump me with their body. If the do, I will spit in their eye. I learned that demand from a llama at a horse farm many years ago. After that I will ask and if they do not respond I will twist my body like I intend to step in front of them to spit as my tell and they stop, most will anyway.
I am not going to define for you exactly what ask, tell and demand are specifically because they are different for every horse. You need out find out what they are for your mare and use them and stop being a worried reactive owner. Before I give you any exercises for refining commitment in the approach to a jump, first you must establish ask, tell, demand or we will both be wasting our time.
I hope this helps.
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Post by jimmy on Dec 16, 2015 0:53:28 GMT
Hi Carrie. That looks like twin rivers, or Connie Authers place. ?
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Post by grayhorse on Dec 16, 2015 2:02:27 GMT
Hi Jimmy, that is Twin Rivers, my favorite horse park. Ive been all over this year Fresno and Camelot too. I rode at Connie's place in October in her hunter pace, it was a good time. My trainer Ann knows Katy btw, she says Katy is amazing.
HG, Ive heard what you are saying before from my trainer friend David. He calls it Please, Pretty Please, now put some Sugar on it...same idea as ask tell demand. Ive tried to apply this to my riding for many years apparently I haven't been too successful, eh? Crap. I didn't think I could fix the testing ... everyone has told me the horse won't change...even trainers are quick to blame my horse actually I hear all the time oh she's a mustang and she's a difficult horse etc ...I wish someone would focus more on fixing me because I need to offer my horse a better rider!!
So, with that said I'll try harder...
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Post by jimmy on Dec 16, 2015 3:17:08 GMT
Carrie. Same mustang I rode?
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Post by grayhorse on Dec 16, 2015 3:48:02 GMT
Jimmy, yes same one. She's going on 16 years old now...time flies huh? You and David are the only ones that never used the mustang excuse for me...I remember when I first met you and I asked you did you care if she was a mustang you said, "She's a horse isn't she"...hey that has stuck with me over the years!
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Post by horseguy on Dec 16, 2015 13:34:50 GMT
... everyone has told me the horse won't change...even trainers are quick to blame my horse actually I hear all the time oh she's a mustang and she's a difficult horse etc ...I wish someone would focus more on fixing me because I need to offer my horse a better rider!! So, with that said I'll try harder... All you need to do is start with the small stuff. Trying harder means doing the steps, ask, tell and demand. Be detached when you do it. Always remember that the horse decides what ask, tell and demand means and which you need to do. When I am training and an apprentice is watching I do a running narrative talking to the horse out loud so the student learns not only what I am doing but how I am making decisions. It usually goes something like this, "OK, I asked you nicely to stop doing that, so now I have to tell you (then I do something I consider a tell). Oh, I thought that was telling you but I see you didn't get it, so not I am going to tell you again (I do something else I think is a tell). Wow, you must be hard of hearing so I will tell you again (I do another tell). I can see that you don't like to be told and you are going to make me be demanding, which I prefer not being but for you I will (I give them a demand and most horses cave in ... but let's pretend the horse didn't). Hmm, you missed my demand, OK here it is again (I usually give them the same demand a second time). You know, I am beginning to think you are an obstinate horse and you are going to make me work hard for my money" (I give them a more intense demand) and so on. At the point of recognizing that the horse insists on the demand mode, I explain to the student trainer that the horse thinks he is in control of the process and in a way he is. He gets to decide that we are in the demand mode and that we will both stay there until something changes. It is his choice, not mine. The demand mode can last hours, weeks, months, depending on the horse. I had a horse named Magnum that kept us in the demand mode for over a year until I gave him away. A big part of the demand mode is projecting to the horse that you are not angry, upset or anything emotional. You need to project that you regret his/her choice to be there but you, out of a great love for horses, will stay there with him/her until you both can move on from demand. Moving on from the demand mode is a real bonding experience with a horse. I have had some of my greatest experiences in the moment when the horse decides to leave it for the "unknown" of unity and cooperation with a rider.  This is a Mustang "type" I picked up cheap at an auction from a very disgruntled Pennsylvania "cowboy". We named him Kevin. He was twelve when I got him and he came to the farm really liking the demand mode. He made everybody there go into the demand mode with him for quite a while. We loved him to death so we went there with him almost every day until he decided to go somewhere else, which turned out to be becoming an overachiever. I sold him to a woman who had lost her riding confidence and I still get emails from her thanking me for selling Kevin to her. The question is, do you want to do what it takes to move with him to the next step, out of demand mode. You have gone through your fist broken bone and a surgery, and that might be a clue to what it might take to go there with a horse who insists on being in that mode. I spent my life walking to the barn in the morning willing to go there and, as I have said, I cannot remember how many broken bones I have. I made that choice almost every day of my life in one way or another. Thankfully many days, me having made that commitment, the horses decided not to go there and I had an easy day. They decide if it is ask, tell or demand, and you decide if you want to go there with them. I'm stupid and stubborn. What's your excuse?  |
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Post by grayhorse on Dec 17, 2015 3:50:34 GMT
Hi Horseguy,
Ive been thinking about your question all day. I apologize if my answer seems weird this dang cast is making it hard to type. The short answer is yes I am willing to do whatever it takes to get my horse trained, the long answer is I fear I don't have the needed skill/aptitude to get it done. I come on here and read all this great stuff and it sounds so good and I admire and respect you all a lot... but it is hard to actually apply and accomplish some of this as an amateur. I cant compare myself with you trainers, but I can say I would like to give it my best effort. I'm not a quitter, never have been. I really desire being a good rider and horseman.
What I do know is trainers can ride my horse, very well actually, better than me. What I might struggle with, a trainer can hop on and accomplish (sometimes in one ride) and I'll be standing there with my jaw dropped...this alone has always told me its not "just my difficult mustang" it has a ton to do with the rider and what the rider can offer. It's basically PROOF as far as I'm concerned. It is always very enlightening to see, and has me thinking well if they can do it...can't I? Hmmm, well, can I? I honestly don't know. I make a lot of mistakes out of ignorance. I hope that doesn't discourage you from giving me tips because I truly appreciate the help and insight. I know its not the same as being in person however without reading this stuff I may not ever hear it anywhere else. Hey, Id have just gone on using the crest release, not knowing any different...
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Post by horseguy on Dec 17, 2015 15:51:06 GMT
Carrie, your post is nothing short of beautiful from my perspective as a trainer/teacher. If all riders were as thoughtful, clear and honest as you are here in this self evaluation, not only would my work be easier and more pleasant but I think equestrian standards generally would be higher than they are today. Thanks.
You have a testing horse. You say that when a professional rider get on her, she gets better almost immediately. That is good news because it means she responds to unmistakable cues and consistency, which is what professional riders give to a horse. It also means you are not providing this to her. You say in your post it is "hard to actually apply and accomplish some of this as an amateur". Yes, it is because professionals do it day after day, often all day long. What we do, to use the Ray Hunt language, is get into that square zero pre-movement moment a lot quicker and a lot easier as a result of practice. In fact, we can usually get there before the horse begins its preparation because we have been there so often with so many horses. If you ride a few times a week and you ride a limited number of horses, it is a lot more difficult. But it is possible.
You need to anticipate the tests your horse gives you. I also think you need to understand and propapbly change how you think about her tests.
Most horses test because they want to absolutely know what to do. They are unsure. The fact that pros hop on and get little or know tests from her would confirm this. Therefore in a way what you have to do is simple. Be more clear, which is an element of leadership. I'd be curious to know how clear you think you are at this point with your cues. But how ever clear you may believe you are, you need to increase it by a factor of 2 or 3 times to begin with. You need to create a "dial" of your clarity. My home sound system shows a number for volume. I like it at 34. Karen likes 28, except after a couple glasses of wine she likes 36. It's like that, you are at say 20 in your clarity "dial" with your horse. You need to find out what 40 looks like or 60.
When I get on a testing horse I give them at least a 50, thinking I can always turn it down, but I do not want to have to turn it up. I am looking for their number. However, when I am working with a young horse, I will give them a 10 because I want to make them a horse that is subtle. If they miss my cue, I will turn it up to 11, then 12. I want a sensitive horse and I give them room to "listen" between very small increments. But with a horse that tests, and we can go into why she does need that extra "volume" later, I want to start high and go down in larger increments, like from 50 to 45, then 40. I am looking to bracket their clarity threshold. (Did you read about the horse I spun after is bucked on lead change cues? The one where the owner fired me? I gave him a 50 and he bucked, then a 60 and he bucked, at about 85 he quit. I wish I had started higher because he thought he could get a head of me at 50 and my aching back had to endure a few jolts because I started to low.)
You need to establish your clarity "dial" of your cues with him, and amateur riders usually don't have a "dial" or a very coarse increment "dial", but it's not that difficult. He is refusing at the last minute in his approach to jumps. This is the test that broke you finger. Dangerous consequence tasks are not a good place to begin establishing your cue clarity "dial". We need to find another go/no-go task where you can provoke a test and not get hurt. I'll suggest a perpendicular approach to a wall or high fence that she absolutely cannot jump. If you trot to a wall on a perpendicular line there are three possibilities, left, right or halt. These are the go/no-go task choices, just like a jump.
Make a lane with cones or ground rails about 10 feet wide 20 to 30 feet long, perpendicular to the wall. This lane will end about 15 feet from the wall. The lane is there to remove left right choice and where it ends is the choice point. At the choice point we teach your horse to commit in response to your cue. If she cannot "hear" your cue, she will test there, or even after the choice point, which is her saying "I need a cue". I'd suggest that you trot her in toward the wall nice and straight, being as neutral as possible about the upcoming left or right choice so she cannot anticipate. When you get to the end of the lane choice point, give her your regular cue left or right. Make the choice of your left or right cue by feeling what she wants to do. If you feel she wants left, give the right turn cue at the choice point or visa versa. Do this faster and later after the choice point until you get a test. Make sure you are aware of the intensity/clarity of your cue each time. On your "dial" scale was it a 20, 30, what? Just give it a number. If she gets feisty, through in the third option of a halt at the wall. Mess with her mid in this way. Keep her guessing so she listens better.
What this provoking a test does is establish a threshold of where and when she feels your cues are unclear, or not "loud" enough. Remember the speed of the trot and where she tested you in relation to the choice point and do it as close to exactly the same as you did before except the next time triple the clarity of your cue. make it "louder" with more leg, more rein, more voice, more everything. You established the low end bracket with the provoked test, now establish the high end bracket she can "hear" with more intense cue.
So let's say you found you get the test at 20, and no test at 60. The correct cue she can "hear" is in between. Through trial and error you close in on it. Let's say you eventually find that 42 is where she always gets it. That is the cue level she needs. That is the cue level the pro riders find very quickly that makes your jaw drop. You can do it, but it will take you longer.
When you get a handle on your "dial" and on you mare's "hearing" threshold, you will be able to establish more meaningful, less ambiguous communication. Once that is established you can use your "dial" in your approaches to jumps. And maybe ... someday you can follow the discovering threshold work with lowering her 42 requirement to 40, then 35, and get it where she trusts and listens because of your mutual communication based in unity, not volume, something her original trainer should have taught her, but they didn't.
Lastly, about the "Mustang excuse". I have not trained a lot of these horses but the ones I have were pretty subtle but in their own way. Breeds do have distinctions. It's hard to put into words, but it's as if a quarter horse requires a brief low tone and the Mustang needs a quicker higher spike like on a sound graph.
It's a poor analogy but it's as if you need to put a little "crack" or spike in your cues with some horses because their "hearing range" requires it. It's not necessarily louder or longer. It goes outside the dotted line in the graph somehow. I hope this doesn't confuse you. It's just another dimension to the cue "dial". I wish I could explain it better. Maybe someone else here can.
When the doc says you can ride, this trot to the wall exercise might be a good new and safe beginning. I hope you get the OK soon to ride again.
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candy
New Member
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Post by candy on Dec 17, 2015 18:29:40 GMT
I will forever have relaxation, rhythm, straightness, and impulsion ingrained in my mind thanks to you Bob.
I have to agree with you Maritza, he has instilled those words & the execution of them into his students heads.
He is a through teacher... |
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Post by grayhorse on Dec 18, 2015 4:15:02 GMT
I am not sure how to use the quote feature so I'll do it the old fashioned way.
Horseguy said:
Carrie, your post is nothing short of beautiful from my perspective as a trainer/teacher. If all riders were as thoughtful, clear and honest as you are here in this self evaluation, not only would my work be easier and more pleasant but I think equestrian standards generally would be higher than they are today. Thanks.
That is very kind and you are welcome. Here I was worried maybe you would not want to help me if I seemed unsure, I'm glad I was wrong! There is so much in your post for me to think about I will try to comment best I can. Again, the dang cast limits me. Just let me say thank you I am always a bit amazed you are so willing to give me your time and knowledge, it is very gracious.
You talk about me having a testing horse and how a trainer is able to provide unmistakable ques and consistency, and that this is what I'm missing. What more can I say, I totally agree.
Finding the level of clarity, or rather the right level of clarity I can tell you I struggle with this, with this horse. I haven’t had as much trouble with other horses. Anyhow, I go through phases where I ride loud and clear and she is super responsive, but the problem I always encounter is I also end up creating tension in my horse when I turn up the intensity, which I know I should avoid. What am I missing?
I did read about you on that horse that bucked. I pity the owner only because I think she missed an opportunity to work with someone that could help her with her horse. I have run into people like this a lot. They have spoiled horses a lot of the time.
Ok so for the provoking the test exercise, I can't do yet of course until I am back to riding. BUT I will do it, and I understand what it is you are saying to do and look for. I can almost imagine riding it, sitting here. I have done this exercise before but not in the investigative way you are suggesting. Not with the "clarity dial" in mind. I will let you know how it goes. That and the lunge line too! You have a great way of describing things by the way. I understood completely.
I will share some video of my horse at a clinic with a trainer riding her (the one that told me about Please, Pretty Please, put some Sugar on it). The video is a few years old now I think, maybe older. I think it shows him go through the levels of clarity with her. For him, it is just a easy natural thing. At one point he grabs hold of her pretty hard. What he edited out and what isn't seen here is her initially testing him about stopping and basically blowing him off, so he turned up the dial. What do you think, do I have it right? She is the 4th horse in, you can fast forward until you see a cowboy sitting on a white horse.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 18, 2015 11:00:29 GMT
To my eye the trainer is very heavy handed with your horse. He is using his body weight a lot to get your horse to move in certain ways. He also uses intense cues. For example, when he is getting lead changes in the figure eight, he is taking your horse well beyond the intersection of the two circles in the eight before he cues the lead change. This is a sort of training "trick" where you double back on the eight, creating more of an angle in the turn to intensify he cue and the horse's feel for the need for a lead change. By the end he uses less of this "trick" once he has established the cue.
I am not sure I would do much of it differently but I would hope I could accomplish as much with less physical cues, meaning I would not "throw the horse around" as much, at least I hope I would.
In the lateral work in the beginning, I see a wide stance horse. She is more concerned with maintaining her secure balance than being agile and responsive. Horses like this prefer to feel that they are "deep in the ground" as opposed to light as a feather. This type generally does not make for great jumpers. If I had to ride the narrow path down into the Grand Canyon I might pick this horse.
In terms of tension, I see tension in the horse's forehand, in the neck and shoulders. It's not like the tension you see in a wound up Arabian, but more from the thicker conformation, more like muscle bound.
I guess the question that comes up for me is what is your goal in riding? If it is jumping or eventing you might do better with a horse that likes to leave the ground. Some do you know. I'd be curious to see what some others here see in this video.
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Post by jimmy on Dec 18, 2015 16:39:10 GMT
In the last several years in my life, I have become more interested in the progression of training. I am more interested in the little things that develop into bigger things.
In this video, I see the trainer going straight for the big things, in a big way. He goes right past feel and straight to power, and pressure release. He goes right past levels of pressure. There is no zero, or even one. He seems to start way up the scale, and the horses are hurrying to catch up.
Even with the first horse, there is no attempt to allow her to take some curiosity in him. In the old school, they called this whip training or breaking, to teach a horse not to turn his but to you. He isn't too harsh, but its still a lot of pressure. Just another form of join up. The clicker is just an added element. What is happening mentally with the clicker? I don't find it any less passive, since the association is, oh crap, next comes a lot of pressure, so I'll face up. So in a way, the clicker elicits a type of anxiety.
In the stopping, he again misses the progression. Part of a developing a good stop is learning how to slow down as quickly as you can. Taking uneducated horses and leveraging them into stopping is not bringing much finesse into the picture. I see a lot of pressure and not a lot of release, or even finesse here.
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