|
Post by horseguy on Jan 11, 2016 22:14:10 GMT
I don't know if I'm brave enough for that sort of exercise! This response might better be put under What's Different About Horsemanship Today but I will put it here. One training technique for both horses and riders is to put them in challenging positions or situations and help them find the most effective way out of it. Admittedly, it's a kind of "scared straight" training method, but it works great on those horses that don't know or don't care where their feet are because they have had such an overly nurtured life, or because they are a little spacey in their mind. The Army used a lot of these and I did many as a kid learning to ride. Today it is a little risky to put students in some of these situations but I still used these kinds of drills with horses until I retired a few months ago. Putting a horse on a frozen side hill that has between 5 and 10 degree slope when the ground is getting some surface thaw from sunshine, and asking for a circle or figure eight is about as challenging a task as you can find in terms of foot fall awareness for a horse. I love doing it. The great ones do it and it's like you are on the best summer footing, not a slip or a slide. That's a thrill. Most average horses slow down and get real serious and pay a lot of attention. That's a real bonding moment in training. It's a "I won't screw it up, if you don't screw it up" moment when you both are careful not to rock the boat. Then you have the spacey, I don't know where my feet are types. That can be scary. The down hill portion of the circle transition to the uphill is maybe the worst part. If I horse isn't careful their butt comes out and they can go down. I'd say 1 out of 50 of the spacey ones still doesn't care in this drill, and they slide on one foot, then two feet, then three and the next thing you feels is a kind of sliding into home plate feeing with the horse into the ground. This was considered part of being a horse trainer not too long ago. You were expected, as part of the job description, to be able to "ride a horse into the ground" and if you were good, back up again. Today a typical trainer feels that butt come out once (assuming they have the skill and determination to do this drill in the first place) and they sort out the horse, he's gone. When I was really training horses in some numbers, the standard was if the horse fell several times, he was gone, but that's when you could fall four times on a cross country course and not be disqualified. The vast majority of horses that fall in this drill never fall again. Some find the depth of their athleticism and keep it together from then on. Some learn to slow down to a speed that their athleticism can handle the situation without falling. They learn to cope. They great ones cope from day one and never fall. I'd say to young horse trainers who might read this that it is not a bad fall to have the horse's butt come out and do that slide into home plate thing. I was only hurt once in it and that was a stupid flailing horse where I got my lower leg back toward the horse's butt. My leg got between the ground and the horse's hip bone as we both hit the ground. Hairline fracture of the lower leg. All better now. It is exercises like this one that saves good horses. Too many horses are sorted out because they are deemed unsuitable today, when all they need is some experience fixing things.
|
|
|
Post by rideanotherday on Jan 12, 2016 11:25:07 GMT
I tend to train my horses and myself with a lot of self preservation in mind. I try to avoid getting hurt because of lay up times. My knee this year has been a great reminder for that. I wasn't doing anything complicated (just normal volleyball), it happened during warm ups. And it wasn't anything that I hadn't done many times before. It would also be a big problem for me if I hurt the horse for something like that. I'm also not an eventer (and have no interest in it) or a polo rider, or a hunt rider, where that particular skill might come into play. I'm not going to tell anyone not do train on hillsides that are just starting to get muddy with a layer of ice underneath, but I'll pass on it. I can see the value of hill work, but not on questionable footing.
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Jan 12, 2016 14:25:30 GMT
... It would also be a big problem for me if I hurt the horse for something like that. ... I'm not going to tell anyone not do train on hillsides that are just starting to get muddy with a layer of ice underneath, but I'll pass on it. I can see the value of hill work, but not on questionable footing.
I'm a dinosaur and I know it. I am actually not advocating that next generation trainers universally employ these archaic training methods and learn the skills. I am saying these skills are out there and they have saved a lot of horses. Each trainer needs to take the risks they can manage intellectually, emotionally, physically and financially and decide what kind of trainer they want to be.
Having said that, it is a great irony for me to see this generation of trainers, who advertise as being more sensitive to, more caring of, and more dedicated to the horse i.e. "It would also be a big problem for me if I hurt the horse" and then I see them sort out so many potentially good horses that would most likely move onto a very productive life IF a trainer would take a little more risk on their behalf. Instead, those nurturing trainers send so many horses off to auctions, directly or indirectly (to save their self image) where the horses next end up on trucks to Canadian or Mexican slaughter houses, or worse to a life as a dangerous or useless back yard pet.
The other irony for me is knowing the risks I have taken to give a horse a chance at a useful productive life, those same caring nurtures, who under the guise of not wanting to hurt a horse in training, describe me as a trainer who is mean to horses, while those same nurtures send another sorted out horse to the killer pen.
I'm not only a dinosaur but a mean dinosaur to this generation. I have, however, walked into that pen more times that I can remember, pulled a horse from it out into the light, inspected it as it tried to bite and kick me, bought it for nothing, given it a life and made money to raise three kids. So forgive me for feeling my BS alarm go off when I hear something like, "It would also be a big problem for me if I hurt the horse for something like that" because horse trainers who say stuff like that most likely have never trained a horse with the mindset of, if I cannot save this horse, it goes back on the road to the ALPO can. That reality will remove the fear of hurting a horse in training and make that fear feel like a luxury.
Please don't take this post personally. Our differences are generational, not personal. (Jimmy taught me to post a smiley when I am direct like this)
|
|
|
Post by rideanotherday on Jan 12, 2016 14:55:53 GMT
... It would also be a big problem for me if I hurt the horse for something like that. ... I'm not going to tell anyone not do train on hillsides that are just starting to get muddy with a layer of ice underneath, but I'll pass on it. I can see the value of hill work, but not on questionable footing.
I'm a dinosaur and I know it. I am actually not advocating that next generation trainers universally employ these archaic training methods and learn the skills. I am saying these skills are out there and they have saved a lot of horses. Each trainer needs to take the risks they can manage intellectually, emotionally, physically and financially and decide what kind of trainer they want to be.
Having said that, it is a great irony for me to see this generation of trainers, who advertise as being more sensitive to, more caring of, and more dedicated to the horse i.e. "It would also be a big problem for me if I hurt the horse" and then I see them sort out so many potentially good horses that would most likely move onto a very productive life IF a trainer would take a little more risk on their behalf. Instead, those nurturing trainers send so many horses off to auctions, directly or indirectly (to save their self image) where the horses next end up on trucks to Canadian or Mexican slaughter houses, or worse to a life as a dangerous or useless back yard pet.
The other irony for me is knowing the risks I have taken to give a horse a chance at a useful productive life, those same caring nurtures, who under the guise of not wanting to hurt a horse in training, describe me as a trainer who is mean to horses, while those same nurtures send another sorted out horse to the killer pen.
I'm not only a dinosaur but a mean dinosaur to this generation. I have, however, walked into that pen more times that I can remember, pulled a horse from it out into the light, inspected it as it tried to bite and kick me, bought it for nothing, given it a life and made money to raise three kids. So forgive me for feeling my BS alarm go off when I hear something like, "It would also be a big problem for me if I hurt the horse for something like that" because horse trainers who say stuff like that most likely have never trained a horse with the mindset of, if I cannot save this horse, it goes back on the road to the ALPO can. That reality will remove the fear of hurting a horse in training and make that fear feel like a luxury.
Please don't take this post personally. Our differences are generational, not personal. (Jimmy taught me to post a smiley when I am direct like this)
It's not personal at all. I don't ship horses "just because" and I've only once thought a horse deserved to get hooked and hung. I've picked horses up and done some rehab and resale. I don't think you are mean, per se. I know my skills and capabilities and desires with horses. That has nothing to do with generational issues or being a dinosaur. There's nothing wrong with me knowing my limits and tolerances as it pertains to horsemanship. So what if I pick horses and disciplines that suit my capabilities? You have a higher threshold for perceived danger than I do. <shrug> That doesn't bother me at all. Horses are friends of mine and responsibilities. If I am overprotective of both my hide and my horses, that's my problem. I'm not trying to save them, just have them in my life. I've gotten some bargains that would have gone to the kill pen. They just needed some civilizing to be able to function as a working member of society. There are people who do what you do. I'm ok not joining in. I'm firmly a fan of functional training. If you are going to be working on hills that are muddy and thawing, then by all means, work the horse there. They should know how to handle it if it's going to be something that crops up in their daily life. However, that's not the only way to teach a horse where it's feet are and how to use itself.
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Jan 12, 2016 20:35:00 GMT
That's my generational point. It once was "the only way". People rode terrain, and the only way to teach a horse to ride terrain was to ride terrain. Now people don't ride terrain, they ride in arenas. So as your say, now people teach a horse where their feet are using gymnastics and other means. But it's different, not as effective. You see the results in fox hunts all the time. The footing gets difficult (farmers will only let you hunt their land after the crops are in and before they plow for the new crop, so it's a winter sport) as we get into winter and the horses that learned in other ways can't manage as well. Today by mid January typically half a hunt club membership is done for the season in places where the ground freezes. Many contemporary American staff riders have difficulty keeping up with a pack of hounds in winter, so more and more hunts hire Irish staff and the ground doesn't freeze in Ireland. The Irish are just better riders. One of the very few benefits of getting old is you can see change with a longer perspective. The other means of teaching horses where their feet are at all times are not as good as terrain in varied footing.
|
|
|
Post by jacki on Jan 13, 2016 4:09:23 GMT
Knowing absolutely NOTHING about horses, my initial impression of you when Laura first began lessons was that you knew a lot about horses but could be short-tempered, bordering on "mean". Now, years later I can honestly say that I have never met anyone who loved horses better than you, including those you didn't necessarily like (a.k.a. Mocha!)
As for the lessons in "questionable" footing, I tried to post a video of Laura sliding Blaze down the hill to the creek, but it was too long. I also have videos of her with Blaze doing the triple jump combo in the orchard and the log and brush jumps coming up the hill from the creek. I might have to post them to Youtube first, then provide a link? Or, if you have copies of them, feel free to post them for comments.
|
|
|
Post by rideanotherday on Jan 13, 2016 11:13:18 GMT
...I am saying these skills are out there and they have saved a lot of horses. Each trainer needs to take the risks they can manage intellectually, emotionally, physically and financially and decide what kind of trainer they want to be.
Having said that, it is a great irony for me to see this generation of trainers, who advertise as being more sensitive to, more caring of, and more dedicated to the horse i.e. "It would also be a big problem for me if I hurt the horse" and then I see them sort out so many potentially good horses that would most likely move onto a very productive life IF a trainer would take a little more risk on their behalf. Instead, those nurturing trainers send so many horses off to auctions, directly or indirectly (to save their self image) where the horses next end up on trucks to Canadian or Mexican slaughter houses, or worse to a life as a dangerous or useless back yard pet.
The other irony for me is knowing the risks I have taken to give a horse a chance at a useful productive life, those same caring nurtures, who under the guise of not wanting to hurt a horse in training, describe me as a trainer who is mean to horses, while those same nurtures send another sorted out horse to the killer pen.
I'm not only a dinosaur but a mean dinosaur to this generation. I have, however, walked into that pen more times that I can remember, pulled a horse from it out into the light, inspected it as it tried to bite and kick me, bought it for nothing, given it a life and made money to raise three kids. So forgive me for feeling my BS alarm go off when I hear something like, "It would also be a big problem for me if I hurt the horse for something like that" because horse trainers who say stuff like that most likely have never trained a horse with the mindset of, if I cannot save this horse, it goes back on the road to the ALPO can. That reality will remove the fear of hurting a horse in training and make that fear feel like a luxury.
Please don't take this post personally. Our differences are generational, not personal. (Jimmy taught me to post a smiley when I am direct like this)
I spent a lot of time thinking about this post last night. One of the things that you brought up was saving the horses. You in this case are less mean than I am apparently. I don't see anything wrong at all with humanely destroying horses for meat production. I think that is a perfectly acceptable method of handling unwanted horses. Certainly, it's a much better option than turning them out to fend for themselves, or rescues putting abuse cases in the hands of raw beginners - that's how things go south FAST. When it comes to horse ownership, I am looking to have one, maybe 2 horses. I am aware of my level of capability and the amount of time I have available for horse ownership. If I don't go into the kill pen to "save" an otherwise rank individual, so be it. There's too many nice horses out there who are looking for homes that trying to save some bronc that bites and kicks isn't worth it to me. Bob, if that's what you want to do, more power to you. There certainly is a market for shopping the kill pen and civilizing the ones you can and finding them an appropriate home. When I say it would be a big problem for me to hurt a horse, it's about rehab and time off and the fact that putting my horse in a position where he trusted me and got hurt because of it would bother me. Call me a bleeding heart if you want, but turn your BS meter off. I'm not going to ship a horse because it didn't get something right. I have the responsibility to find the way to help the horse and I have before. I'll tell the story of Powerful of Ebony on a different thread - she was a mare I rehabbed while I was in college. I will happily ride in an arena - it's a luxury I never had growing up. I'll also happily load horses into a trailer to go places, also because it's a luxury I didn't have growing up. We rode our horses the 8 miles into town to show for 4H and then showed all day and rode home at the end of the show. If I can afford to do better now, I certainly will. You may have some methods that I'm not interested in using myself. That has nothing to do with my "generation". It's an awareness of what I am capable of doing as a rider. If I had learned that skill set as a kid, it might not bother me now. I didn't. And I worry about getting hurt as well as hurting my friends. Is that really so bad? If it makes me a poor rider, I can live with that. I got over comparing myself to others when it comes to horses a long time ago.
|
|
|
Post by Jlynn on Jan 13, 2016 12:54:47 GMT
"You may have some methods that I'm not interested in using myself. That has nothing to do with my "generation". It's an awareness of what I am capable of doing as a rider. If I had learned that skill set as a kid, it might not bother me now. I didn't. And I worry about getting hurt as well as hurting my friends. Is that really so bad? If it makes me a poor rider, I can live with that. I got over comparing myself to others when it comes to horses a long time ago."
I think that was HG's point. If one doesn't learn the skill set he can't pass it down to the next generation. There become less and less people to teach it and pretty soon is disappears altogether.
This has been an interesting discussion guys, Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by rideanotherday on Jan 13, 2016 13:12:09 GMT
"You may have some methods that I'm not interested in using myself. That has nothing to do with my "generation". It's an awareness of what I am capable of doing as a rider. If I had learned that skill set as a kid, it might not bother me now. I didn't. And I worry about getting hurt as well as hurting my friends. Is that really so bad? If it makes me a poor rider, I can live with that. I got over comparing myself to others when it comes to horses a long time ago." I think that was HG's point. If one doesn't learn the skill set he can't pass it down to the next generation. There become less and less people to teach it and pretty soon is disappears altogether. This has been an interesting discussion guys, Thanks. Wisconsin, especially where I grew up, is pretty flat. We just didn't have terrain like that. Generational? No. Locational, yes. Plus, I didn't have a trainer who did things similar to that? Eventing, hunting etc were not done, or really even available. I never read about that particular training sequence in books and I read everything the school and public libraries had on horses and training. Wasn't something I would have come up with on my own. <shrug>
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Jan 13, 2016 17:28:07 GMT
I think that was HG's point. If one doesn't learn the skill set he can't pass it down to the next generation. There become less and less people to teach it and pretty soon is disappears altogether. Yes, that is what I am saying. I have taught a lot of riders over the years, but by and large "field riding" skills, an old military term, are being lost. What concerns me is field riding is not something you can learn out of a book. I have thought about writing a modern field riding instruction manual, but learning it intellectually might get someone killed because it requires an experienced person with judgment to determine what is dangerous on any given day in varied situations. My students who post here will tell you we have done a lot of slip sliding around on slopes year around, but also that no one was hurt. That's because I can look at a day and decide where the limits are. A book can't do that. Field riding is learned incrementally. It is best learned on a well trained field horse and they are disappearing too. Fox hunt's are actually breeding slower running hounds so people can ride and keep up with the pack because riders do not have the skills. Talk about dumbing down a sport. Here is the math. I managed to do about half what my born at the turn of the 20th century cavalry rider/teacher did. My best students could maybe do 60% of what I am/was capable of. That means my students can do about 30% of what my instructor could do. That's how skills disappear.
|
|
|
Post by rideforever on Jan 13, 2016 17:38:41 GMT
Those skills may be disappearing because they aren't needed anymore. What seems like a tragedy is merely the selection of different skills. Horses aren't working animals anymore, they aren't transportation. They are luxury pets for the most part. Sad. But true
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Jan 13, 2016 18:05:16 GMT
There is a book about the Afghan War. Great read. After it came out US Special Forces were required to take some riding skills lessons. The need is not entirely gone.
|
|
|
Post by Jlynn on Jan 14, 2016 13:12:29 GMT
It was a good book... and I would argue that at least half of those people who have "pet" horses would use them if they (the horses and the people) were properly trained. I think a good portion of people don't ride because they don't feel safe on their horses.
|
|
|
Post by rideanotherday on Jan 14, 2016 14:31:14 GMT
It was a good book... and I would argue that at least half of those people who have "pet" horses would use them if they (the horses and the people) were properly trained. I think a good portion of people don't ride because they don't feel safe on their horses. Physical fitness, time, skill, equine level of training, person's level of training, fear of getting hurt...I think a lot of things play in to why people don't ride the horses they have. People don't learn how to buy horses based on much past "oooohhhh shiney" and get sold a counterfeit bag of bones that might be worth fixing on the basis of looks alone...but may have health issues or personality quirks or gaping holes in their training that prevent them from being a useful member of society - which is why they are for sale in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by KelMine on Aug 14, 2019 11:23:16 GMT
Cialis Price Europe 345 Propecia Scotland Finasteride 1 Mb Propecia <a href=http://yafoc.com>propecia reproduccion</a> Moxicillinantibioticbuy Generic Levitra L Tabs
|
|