|
|
Post by horseguy on Feb 19, 2016 21:53:41 GMT
I'm having a hard time with this topic. You've explained what it is, but how do you use this information? I might not be reading your post the right way, because I want a reason for needing to analyze things to this level It's about "feel". I don't think there is anything more difficult than explaining feel but it's very important. One of the best things I have read about feel is something Jimmy wrote about Ray Hunt. Jimmy said that Ray Hunt advised "Don't start at square one, start at square zero". Those words gave literal meaning to something I have felt for years but couldn't put into words. "Square zero" is something you feel but it's subtle. Likewise, the line of impulsion is feel. It's like the bubble in a level.  You mount up and ride and you feel the bubble in the movement. You want that bubble to be a little up toward the front of the horse. It's a feeling of lightness in the forehand but it is far more precise. For me square zero is very precise. It describes a very small moment of set up in a horse. The line of impulsion is like that. I think it's incredible that dressage riders felt it and could agree that a 19 degree upward inclination of the line was optimum for dressage. That's discussing "feel" in a very precise way. It can be done. We can get to these kind of insights and discuss them. It's interesting and useful. Yes, it's kind of over intellectual too but I have learned from these kinds of discussions. |
|
|
|
Post by grayhorse on Feb 20, 2016 4:03:27 GMT
Hi Horseguy,
I haven't posted for awhile because I've been busy (got a new job offer, started college classes to finish a degree, started physical therapy on my hand, been looking for a new trainer, etc)...things have been hectic I mean really hectic, but I've been popping in here to read a bit (on my phone), just haven't had a chance to sit and write....with that said, this topic really interests me. My horse is a forehand heavy horse. It takes a good warm up with thoughtful riding from myself (key words feel and timing and balancing exercises) before she starts to use herself in a balanced way, or "through" her back, round, etc.
Anyhow, you mention the reach under the belly as a sign of the horse using itself in a more balanced way. I have mentioned before that I get in long debates with my pleasure riding friends, and one thing they like to point out to me is that their horses do reach under the belly, and in some cases they truly do I've spent hours watching them...actually one horse I am thinking of, would go around with great reach stepping into the front hoof print every time, but with a head dropped lower than the withers while carrying itself behind the bridle. This looks heavy and restricted to me BUT the riders swear they can feel the horse driving under and lifting the back.... This baffles me, how is there good reach under, but in such a downwards carrying frame? What is happening in the horse, when this is seen? I know we had a WP discussion already, but the horse in that picture was short in its stride if I recall the photo...
Curious for thoughts about this.
|
|
|
|
Post by grayhorse on Feb 20, 2016 4:34:52 GMT
Also, this article circulated around on Facebook and I thought I'd share it here for discussion as well. Thoughts? It is a public post that allowed me to share it to any website, so figured it was safe to do so here. Hope it works I've had to edit this a few times to keep trying to get it to come up. Ok, I couldn't figure out how to post it with a LINK so I had to resort to copying and pasting it below. It was written by Equitopia Center on Facebook if you want to look at the source itself. Here you go:     Dr. Robson here... I read a post from a fellow DVM this morning who was sharing a post from another person about the impact of horses traveling on the forehand and the potential for damage to subchondral bone and other structures. Her title was "Beware if your horse spends too much time with its head below its withers." Rather than respond on her page, I would prefer to share a broader post. While I believe that her intentions were completely correct, and absolutely agree that horses ridden on the forehand are prone to damage, I'm concerned about the bigger picture. Rather, just because a horse travels with its head below it's withers, doesn't automatically mean the horse IS on its forehand. Does it? There are only 2 journal articles demonstrating kinematics on the limbs at different head-neck positions (HNPs). One ridden, one unridden. While the conclusion included increased forelimb loading in a "longitudinal extension down and out head-neck position" in both ridden and unridden horses at walk and trot on a treadmill...the picture of HNP6 (longitudinal extension) is not really below horizontal, nor is the horse actually "connected and pushing from behind" as we might say. There are also semantic issues cropping up both in journal articles and in lay-speech regarding "low neck." Do we mean low neck as in longitudinal flexion, or rollkur as in low-deep-round, as in extreme hyperflexion? This is most often what is insinuated, and does have a negative impact on a number of health parameters. Interestingly, "When the head was fixed in a high position at the walk, the flexion-extension movement and lateral bending of the lumbar back, as well as the axial rotation, were significantly reduced when compared to movements with the head free or in a low position." Interestingly, time and time again, it seems it's actually the HIGH head position (extreme elevation, as seen in most advanced dressage horses) that has the most negative impact on kinematics and stress indicators (cortisol, heartrate, anticipatory anxiety, and objective behaviors). Additional research is needed to piece together the circle of influence of the horse's skeleton, muscles, tendons, ligaments, fascia, etc. against gravity, the influence of a rider, and how we can best support the horse to develop strong physical and mental health. This is one area that Equitopia is aggressively working for further information and elucidation. Images are included to further highlight the discussion; as always (our disclaimer) - we recognize these are one static moment in time. The first horse is elongated quite nicely in longitudinal contact, the LH is striking just prior to the RF (not on forehand). The middle horse is "stretched" and quite relaxed on a loose rein but the front foot is actually landing before the hind diagonal (mis-matched pairing) with slightly less reach behind and is on the forehand. The third is elongated forward-down-out and striking apparently simultaneously or possibly just on forehand. The fourth is, well, lovely, (can't you feel your own body relax and breathe when you see this?) and again hitting slightly RH prior with some elevation to LF diagonal. If anything positive has come from the rollkur and people vyying for their training method being the best method, it's that there is interest in peer-reviewed research on head-neck positioning and affect on physical and mental state and training methods, and welfare of the horse in equitation science. Much more is needed. For the horses' sakes. Thanks! |
|
|
|
Post by jacki on Feb 20, 2016 17:11:11 GMT
I am a nonrider with absolutely zero knowledge of this type of riding, but this is what I see: The legs seem very straight and "spindly". I have a couple questions. First, are the lower head position and lack of knee action/leg muscle development related? And second, what is the horse's field of vision with its head low as compared to a higher position? I have no idea of the effects of either on a horse's neck muscles, but that position doesn't look practical or safe for "field" riding outside a flat arena (knees are shock absorbers and help us balance). Do these horses ever go faster than a light trot, and if so, do they raise their heads then?
|
|
