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Post by horseguy on Feb 22, 2016 19:59:22 GMT
You see very few ring gags today. The so called elevator type gags are more popular but work somewhat differently. If there is any leverage in a ring gag it is in the turning of the rings, which come in different diameters. The ability to apply a wider range of pressure and to do it more precisely is the advantage of the ring gag.
Ring Gag
Elevator Gag
The main difference between the two above gag bits is that with a ring gag the reins are directly attached by "gag rounds" that go through the ring and connect up to the bridle crown piece. The rider is therefore using the reins directly on the poll, not through any leverage through shanks, which in the above picture are made up of two welded small rings below the main ring. In the leverage elevator gag the action is more like any English or western leverage bit.
This picture shows the action of the ring gag with the highlighted blue line, which unfortunately covers up the gag round. (notice the addition of the rubber cheek guards, good idea with gags) You can feel the poll with this setup better than with a shank type gag. Also, please notice the draw rein that comes from the English saddle billets attached above the girth buckles, through the gag ring to the rider's hands. By slipping the bit reins attached to the gag rounds, the rider can completely release the poll action and switch to ridding with the draw reins as the bit reins as if on a simple loose ring snaffle. Typically I would use a laced rein for the gag round reins and a smooth rein for the draw rein so I could feel which is which and adjust according to the moment's requirements, a common practice.
Ring gags are not common outside polo and the effective use of them is even more limited. This kind of rig requires great skill in separating the two sets of reins, but once mastered it opens up a lot of possibilities for precisely adjusting balance, particularly at speed. Warning: I have seen beginner polo players buy a horse that came with this rig get onto a field and haul hard on BOTH reins, which can result in a very contorted rearing of the horse regardless of circumstances, standing still or moving quickly.
Note the dropped nose band below the bit and the rope cavesson attached to a standing martingale above the bit. The dropped nose band is essential to keep the bit in place. The rope cavesson/standing martingale is typical of a polo rig. It is there to keep a horse in balance even if a player (rider or opponent) might accidently strike the horse under the chin with a mallet, which is a foul in every case.
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Post by rideanotherday on Feb 23, 2016 11:39:08 GMT
I have never played nor watched polo, so I can't really speak to the head gear or bits used.
I can speak to gag bits and the picture you showed. Holy wow that's a lot of gear on the horse. I guess I'm a minimalist when it comes right down to it. I want to use just enough to get the job done and not have a lot left over. I understand that polo is a different situation, but I hope to never need to use that set up on a horse. I consider that pretty harsh and unforgiving of mistakes. And the one that pays for any mistakes is the horse.
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Post by horseguy on Feb 23, 2016 14:22:31 GMT
The reasons for what looks to be a rather complex and overdone polo bridle is for both safety and traditions. It was the British military who popularized polo after the conquest of India and Pakistan. The game was used to keep cavalry horses and riders fit for battle. Military riders always had double reins so as to have a spare in case an enemy saber cut a rein. The standing martingale protects the horse and rider form sudden rebalancing'rearing in case the horse's head or neck is struck by a ball, mallet, or horse. The drop nose band keeps the bit in the correct place when the gag action can lift it in the mouth. Polo is a dangerous sport if played well and the equipment is there to try to limit that danger. By contrast fox hunting, another British sport, is very minimalist in its equipment. Anything beyond a flat leather bridle and simple bit is fronded upon, although you see more martingales over the past few decades. All extra equipment like galloping boots must be approved by the Master of the hunt, or at least that was the case in the past. Recently a rider showed up for a hunt in a pink breastplate. Things change, but not in polo because it's a serious sport and the equipment is time tested. The best polo in the US is in Aiken SC and in Florida in the winter. If you ever get a chance to see a game, it's fun, but some "club polo" can be like 8 year old kids all bunched up on a soccer field. You need to see good polo with pros to really see the game.   %20challenges%20Nacho%20Figueras%20of%20Argentina%20at%20the%20Sentebale%20Polo%20Cup%20in%20Campinas,%20Brazil%20March%2011,%202012)  |
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Post by jimmy on Feb 23, 2016 15:00:14 GMT
All I can say is that it must be a polo thing, so I wouldn't understand. It is so specific to polo, that I have no perspective. I sure as heck wouldn't have any use for any of that equipment.
I have trouble with the idea of one piece of equipment, that in order for it to be effective, must be enhanced with several other pieces of equipment, in order to minimize any harsh effects, and then be presented with arguments that it is not harsh at all, but for safety, and there is no real leverage involved. Nose band, draw reins, bit guards, etc. Also, it always seems to be argued that the gag is about poll pressure, and because there is no shank, is not leverage. I just say bs to that. The poll is hard bone, so it is the immovable point of leverage against the corners of the mouth, which as a result can be pulled against with at least a two to one leverage, if not more. The soft lips and mouth cannot put leverage on the hard poll. You seem to be arguing that all this equipment provides refinement. I agree that skill would have to be acquired, simply because other wise you would flip your horse over backwards.
How much has polo changed over the years? Has anyone involved in the sport ever tried another approach to teaching the kind of control needed to play the game. or do they just always do what everyone has always done, with equipment they have always used?
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Post by rideanotherday on Feb 23, 2016 15:47:08 GMT
All I can say is that it must be a polo thing, so I wouldn't understand. It is so specific to polo, that I have no perspective. I sure as heck wouldn't have any use for any of that equipment. I have trouble with the idea of one piece of equipment, that in order for it to be effective, must be enhanced with several other pieces of equipment, in order to minimize any harsh effects, and then be presented with arguments that it is not harsh at all, but for safety, and there is no real leverage involved. Nose band, draw reins, bit guards, etc. Also, it always seems to be argued that the gag is about poll pressure, and because there is no shank, is not leverage. I just say bs to that. The poll is hard bone, so it is the immovable point of leverage against the corners of the mouth, which as a result can be pulled against with at least a two to one leverage, if not more. The soft lips and mouth cannot put leverage on the hard poll. You seem to be arguing that all this equipment provides refinement. I agree that skill would have to be acquired, simply because other wise you would flip your horse over backwards. How much has polo changed over the years? Has anyone involved in the sport ever tried another approach to teaching the kind of control needed to play the game. or do they just always do what everyone has always done, with equipment they have always used? I agree with this. |
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Post by horseguy on Feb 23, 2016 21:02:06 GMT
All I can say is that it must be a polo thing, so I wouldn't understand. It is so specific to polo, that I have no perspective. I sure as heck wouldn't have any use for any of that equipment. I have trouble with the idea of one piece of equipment, that in order for it to be effective, must be enhanced with several other pieces of equipment, in order to minimize any harsh effects, and then be presented with arguments that it is not harsh at all, but for safety, and there is no real leverage involved. Nose band, draw reins, bit guards, etc. Also, it always seems to be argued that the gag is about poll pressure, and because there is no shank, is not leverage. I just say bs to that. The poll is hard bone, so it is the immovable point of leverage against the corners of the mouth, which as a result can be pulled against with at least a two to one leverage, if not more. The soft lips and mouth cannot put leverage on the hard poll. You seem to be arguing that all this equipment provides refinement. I agree that skill would have to be acquired, simply because other wise you would flip your horse over backwards. How much has polo changed over the years? Has anyone involved in the sport ever tried another approach to teaching the kind of control needed to play the game. or do they just always do what everyone has always done, with equipment they have always used? It is a polo thing and it has not changed much at all for many, many years. Regarding, "then be presented with arguments that it is not harsh at all, but for safety" That rig can be extremely harsh. Example, I was once an umpire in a pretty good tournament in which a 4th generation polo player in his teens was moving flat out down the field with the ball in a fast break. Being fast, each dribbling "tap" of the ball down the field went about 30 yards in front of the young well trained player. Then out of the blue a very welloff and entitled middle aged opposing player, who was not very good or smart, thought he could slowly cross in front of the young player with the ball, and take it from him. Crossing the line of the ball going forward in any way that is remotely unsafe is a serious penalty. In this case it was a deadly mistake that nearly became a T-bone wreck.
The kid sat his horse down out of the fast gallop, lifted up the front end of his horse out of the gallop using this typical polo rig, and bent the horse around his inside leg so that he merely glanced his horse off the idiot who crossed in front of him. As it unfolded I had already blown the whistle and I was thinking we would need two ambulances. It was over before anyone could perceive how incredibly well that young man had used the intensity of the polo rig, something he had been doing for at least 10 years. It was masterful, athletic riding and a near miracle made largely possible thanks to the bridle. It was extremely harsh on the horse, but he was not injured. As Gen. George Patton said of polo, "It's the closest thing there is to war."
This is what I was addressing when I "seem" to be arguing that all this equipment provides refinement". It does if you know how to use it. I guess in a dangerous situation it is both harsh and refined if used well. The problem is most players do not use it in a refined way even if there is no danger, which is why I suggested avoiding "club polo" games where guys who are newly rich go to become "polo players". You wanna kill them when you watch them abuse the power of the equipment to try and fail to control a horse they could afford but cannot ride.
In most dangerous sports you have to get a license or pass a test to enter levels above rank beginner. In drag racing, for example, you cannot go out and buy a Top Fuel dragster with 8,000 horsepower and enter a race.
But in polo you pretty much can. Rich guys come into the sport, spend $200,000 on a truck, trailer 10 horses, equipment, a full time pro, and expenses, stay for two years and leave. Happens all the time. It is, I believe fear of that circumstance, that has anyone with sense using the traditional rig.
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Post by rideanotherday on Feb 23, 2016 23:11:50 GMT
"The kid sat his horse down out of the fast gallop, lifted up the front end of his horse out of the gallop using this typical polo rig, and bent the horse around his inside leg so that he merely glanced his horse off the idiot who crossed in front of him. As it unfolded I had already blown the whistle and I was thinking we would need two ambulances. It was over before anyone could perceive how incredibly well that young man had used the intensity of the polo rig, something he had been doing for at least 10 years. It was masterful, athletic riding and a near miracle made largely possible thanks to the bridle. It was extremely harsh on the horse, but he was not injured. As Gen. George Patton said of polo, "It's the closest thing there is to war."
This is what I was addressing when I "seem" to be arguing that all this equipment provides refinement". It does if you know how to use it. I guess in a dangerous situation it is both harsh and refined if used well. The problem is most players do not use it in a refined way even if there is no danger, which is why I suggested avoiding "club polo" games where guys who are newly rich go to become "polo players". You wanna kill them when you watch them abuse the power of the equipment to try and fail to control a horse they could afford but cannot ride."
This is the antithesis of refinement. Refinement of cues and equipment gives a horse a choice to respond in the desired manner. That kind of use may be "safer" for the riders, but calling it masterful or refined...I have a hard time wrapping my head around that. I am truly glad that no one, and no horses were injured, but to call that necessary gear to prevent wrecks just gives me a really good reason to not watch, nor be involved in polo in anyway.
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Post by horseguy on Feb 24, 2016 14:21:32 GMT
This is the antithesis of refinement. Refinement of cues and equipment gives a horse a choice to respond in the desired manner. That kind of use may be "safer" for the riders, but calling it masterful or refined...I have a hard time wrapping my head around that. I am truly glad that no one, and no horses were injured, but to call that necessary gear to prevent wrecks just gives me a really good reason to not watch, nor be involved in polo in anyway. It may be that you have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of polo, and for you it can only be an idea, is that you never knew the old horsemen who rode their horses in war. Those men had a completely different concept of a horse's job than the contemporary and very limited standard of today. Example, when I was young a horse could fall four times on a cross country course in a Combined Training competition and not be disqualified. It was assumed that horses fell when riding over challenging terrain. Now, one fall and you are out. Fox hounds are now being bred to run slower so riders can "safely" keep up. I gave a lesson last week to a young rider who grew up riding only in fenced and indoor arenas. A quick thaw and refreeze had flooded the indoor and the footing was a mix of slushy mud, icy crust and hard frozen ground. I said we'd work on riding in mixed footing. Tears formed in her eyes. I got on her horse and cantered throughout the arena, turning, stopping, starting regardless of footing to try to convince her that a good horse (I trained and hunted this horse) can take you anywhere anytime. I believe that you, like my student, do not have the slightest grasp of what a horse can do, and thus can love to do. You have been coddled, protected and misled with regard to horses. I don't blame you. I blame George Morris, insurance companies, personal injury lawyers and animal rights organizations. You can't wrap your head around the idea of polo because your idea of horses is a million miles from the reality of horses that men like those who taught me to ride knew as absolute truth. This is why you can not watch or understand polo. I may be an anachronism, but I am happy I have lived the life I have with horses. |
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Post by jimmy on Feb 24, 2016 14:39:28 GMT
Yeah but.....
All the old text of war horses, all the books and films of the training at Fort Riley, all the old paintings and bronzes of Generals sitting high on their mounts, etchings of nights on horseback in full armor, the text of King Duarte of Portugal, etc etc.....none of it depicts any such gear and gizmos and devices in order to train and ride a horse into combat. So something happened somewhere along the line in the evolution, or de-evolution, of training, to come up with the gag bit used with draw reins, and tie downs with bit gaurds and nose bands. Not just used as temporary training devices, but as standard equipment to go into battle.
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Post by horseguy on Feb 24, 2016 15:14:29 GMT
Jimmy, you are right. That rig is an evolution pretty much driven by the Argentines. It may be like if you want to be a great basketball player you need to be wearing Air Jordan sneakers (or the equivalent today).
I used that gag rig on about 50% of my horses. It has a lot to offer once you figure it out. All the racecar drivers today, except NASCAR, like paddle shifters. I have never driven a paddle shifter car. I like a stick at the center hump, but maybe there is something to the shifters being on the steering wheel.
Back in the 70s and 80's you'd see British players come to America to play and they all had a standard military double bridle like this
but with a standing martingale. But I notice when I see Princes William and Harry playing they are mostly in ring gag rigs.
William is using the ring gag rig (with a very short martingale) and Harry has the military set up with varied shank lengths and has replaced the Pelham direct bit rein with draw reins in a British/Argie hybrid. Both wear Argentine style knee guards. Apparently the Falklands War has been forgiven.
note: William plays the 4 position, defenseman, the player who makes the most contact with opponents. Harry plays 1 or 2, which are the shooter positions, who avoid contact with opposing players. The 3 is the playmaker and the primary target of the 4.
Me (many years ago) with a Pelham rig, although 4 was my favorite position.
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Post by rideforever on Feb 24, 2016 15:20:16 GMT
This is the antithesis of refinement. Refinement of cues and equipment gives a horse a choice to respond in the desired manner. That kind of use may be "safer" for the riders, but calling it masterful or refined...I have a hard time wrapping my head around that. I am truly glad that no one, and no horses were injured, but to call that necessary gear to prevent wrecks just gives me a really good reason to not watch, nor be involved in polo in anyway. It may be that you have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of polo, and for you it can only be an idea, is that you never knew the old horsemen who rode their horses in war. Those men had a completely different concept of a horse's job than the contemporary and very limited standard of today. Example, when I was young a horse could fall four times on a cross country course in a Combined Training competition and not be disqualified. It was assumed that horses fell when riding over challenging terrain. Now, one fall and you are out. Fox hounds are now being bred to run slower so riders can "safely" keep up. I gave a lesson last week to a young rider who grew up riding only in fenced and indoor arenas. A quick thaw and refreeze had flooded the indoor and the footing was a mix of slushy mud, icy crust and hard frozen ground. I said we'd work on riding in mixed footing. Tears formed in her eyes. I got on her horse and cantered throughout the arena, turning, stopping, starting regardless of footing to try to convince her that a good horse (I trained and hunted this horse) can take you anywhere anytime. I believe that you, like my student, do not have the slightest grasp of what a horse can do, and thus can love to do. You have been coddled, protected and misled with regard to horses. I don't blame you. I blame George Morris, insurance companies, personal injury lawyers and animal rights organizations. You can't wrap your head around the idea of polo because your idea of horses is a million miles from the reality of horses that men like those who taught me to ride knew as absolute truth. This is why you can not watch or understand polo. I may be an anachronism, but I am happy I have lived the life I have with horses. It's interesting that you use the term "coddled" and "blame George Morris" I know how rideanotherday got started. She rode scrubby little ponies, and learned about falling off the hard way. She rehabbed an Arabian gelding most folks were ready to write off as a basket case, and he would have walked through fire for her, if she said it was ok. Growing up, the only arenas she rode in were during the Fair for 4-H. We rode on dirt roads and logging trails, in farmers fields and swam the horses in the creek bottom. So, to say that she was "coddled" is a gross misstatement. Her experience, much like mine, says that less is better when it comes to gear. I could bend a horse in half, and basically sit him on his rump, without all that gear.... But I happen to prefer keeping my horse sound, so I don't ride like that. Good horsemanship is about doing less, and allowing your horse to do more. I have used gag bits, but they were merely used long enough to help the horse learn what he needed to, and as soon as I could, we went to a milder bit. Most people lack the skill, timing and sensitivity to ride well in a gag bit. An honestly, most horses don't need them. |
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Post by rideanotherday on Feb 24, 2016 15:26:52 GMT
This is the antithesis of refinement. Refinement of cues and equipment gives a horse a choice to respond in the desired manner. That kind of use may be "safer" for the riders, but calling it masterful or refined...I have a hard time wrapping my head around that. I am truly glad that no one, and no horses were injured, but to call that necessary gear to prevent wrecks just gives me a really good reason to not watch, nor be involved in polo in anyway. It may be that you have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of polo, and for you it can only be an idea, is that you never knew the old horsemen who rode their horses in war. Those men had a completely different concept of a horse's job than the contemporary and very limited standard of today. Example, when I was young a horse could fall four times on a cross country course in a Combined Training competition and not be disqualified. It was assumed that horses fell when riding over challenging terrain. Now, one fall and you are out. Fox hounds are now being bred to run slower so riders can "safely" keep up. I gave a lesson last week to a young rider who grew up riding only in fenced and indoor arenas. A quick thaw and refreeze had flooded the indoor and the footing was a mix of slushy mud, icy crust and hard frozen ground. I said we'd work on riding in mixed footing. Tears formed in her eyes. I got on her horse and cantered throughout the arena, turning, stopping, starting regardless of footing to try to convince her that a good horse (I trained and hunted this horse) can take you anywhere anytime. I believe that you, like my student, do not have the slightest grasp of what a horse can do, and thus can love to do. You have been coddled, protected and misled with regard to horses. I don't blame you. I blame George Morris, insurance companies, personal injury lawyers and animal rights organizations. You can't wrap your head around the idea of polo because your idea of horses is a million miles from the reality of horses that men like those who taught me to ride knew as absolute truth. This is why you can not watch or understand polo. I may be an anachronism, but I am happy I have lived the life I have with horses. See, this is where I think we really have a bit of a breakdown. I haven't been exposed to George Morris and quite frankly, he's not important in my development as a horseman. I'm not a jumper and I'm ok with that. My heart and my home are really in western riding. You may have years on me as far as the amount of riding is concerned, but to dismiss my knowledge or grasp of what horses can do is insulting. I have swum rivers, roped cows, shoed horses in pastures, ridden on ice and in snow and crappy weather. I've ridden cutting horses and not to dismiss your polo horses, but the abilities they have to swap directions can take your breath away. Just because I haven't been exposed to certain things doesn't mean I can't evaluate a particular set of skills or equipment and realize that I either don't have the guts to pull them off or don't want to use them. I know where MY skills and thresholds are. I don't need to be condescended to based on what you feel is necessary because of your experiences. If you want to ride a horse on icy, questionable footing in the name of training - I say go for it and best of luck. One of the skill sets I have developed outside of horses is "risk and cost management". Cost isn't always about money. Management of risk and cost and a really strong streak of common sense allow me to be able to evaluate situations and decide what I'm willing to do. My only real goal as a horseman is to someday win a buckle in cutting or reined cowhorse. Riding on icy hills really won't be a skill used for that. |
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Post by jimmy on Feb 24, 2016 15:59:12 GMT
Horseguy, along the lines of the history, I have read that the cavesson was first used to prevent horses from breaking their jaw when falling in battle. Don't know if that is true. It would also seem, that a long shank bit would be dangerous in polo.
I can also imagine, that if your army showed up to combat in snaffles, and you got your ass whipped. While the opponent was in some serious gear, that if you wanted to win, you might think of gearing up for it.
I don't expect polo to be an example of the finer points of artistic riding. I think it is an example of high contact equestrian sport, where riding aggressively is more important than riding to impress. Not to say polo players don't appreciate their horses, but I think the horse comes second, in the scheme of things, in this case. I can accept that.
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Post by horseguy on Feb 24, 2016 16:08:58 GMT
Coddled is relative term. It could be said all Americans are coddled, particularly if someone says that from Syria for example. I don't know many people here personally. I know American riders, who are generally coddled if under a certain age in the sense that their experience of horses is almost universally quite limited. Additionally, I know that from the Generation Xers to the Millennials there is a fairly common sense of disrespect for tradition and history from which many judgments, like the one about polo, come. It is from this sense of disrespect that we hear catch phrases like "we can agree do disagree", which has a subtle implication that we are somehow vaguely equal. One of the great things about riding horses is that we are not all equal in a very interesting way. In order to ride well, to win a polo game, be present at a hole when the fox goes to ground or be successful in any objective (not judged) equestrian endeavor, we must first be able to relate well to a horse and direct that relationship into effectiveness. We must also allow the horse to contribute authentically. Being on a team is somewhat like that but not. I have known jet fighter pilots who describe a similar experience, except a jet is just metal moving parts. It's only with a horse that we can your explore relationship and effectiveness with such intensity. This is what's being lost and it is a great tragedy. Horses offer us the greatest opportunity possible to know ourselves in powerful ways. It's out there. I highly recommend it.  |
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Post by horseguy on Feb 24, 2016 16:39:53 GMT
Horseguy, along the lines of the history, I have read that the cavesson was first used to prevent horses from breaking their jaw when falling in battle. Don't know if that is true. It would also seem, that a long shank bit would be dangerous in polo. I can also imagine, that if your army showed up to combat in snaffles, and you got your ass whipped. While the opponent was in some serious gear, that if you wanted to win, you might think of gearing up for it. I don't expect polo to be an example of the finer points of artistic riding. I think it is an example of high contact equestrian sport, where riding aggressively is more important than riding to impress. Not to say polo players don't appreciate their horses, but I think the horse comes second, in the scheme of things, in this case. I can accept that.
I never heard that about cavessons and jaws breaking but it makes a lot of sense.
And yes, there is a lot of "gearing up" in polo. The worst is getting farriers to weld on 3/4 inch hind heel calks to improve stopping. The result is in a roll back you see spiral fractures of the hind cannon bone. This practice should be illegal, but again, the best riders can use these shoes and do not fracture their horse's legs, another odd version of "refined" riding.
Polo depends on riding aggressively but it also depends of finesse. For example, if you can time the 1 beat of the canter exactly with the head of your mallet striking the ball, you get an extra 10 or 15 yards on the hit. To accomplish this you must be on the correct lead, rate your horse exactly to the ball, begin your swing two strides out from the ball and have a powerful stride. It is the only way to score on the 150 yard #5 penalty shot and pros do it regularly. Every aspect, even umpiring, in the game is dangerously aggressive and requires a kind of high speed thoughtfulness, which is often not enough.
I want to refine, if you will, your take on polo horses being second. They are second up to the point that they "make the cut". Once they have proven their ability and love of the game, and the great ones do love it, players will put themselves second in order to protect their horse. The same Argie riders who will teach a horse to stop by letting him go off a cliff, will cry when a made horse is injured. The great Memo Gracida, famous for his yellow helmet,
played a 20 year old mare in an international championship, which is the highest level of the game. Once a polo horse makes the cut, they are number one.
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