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Post by horseguy on Mar 10, 2016 13:13:48 GMT
Spring is a time a lot of people start shopping for a new saddle. There is a wide range of ideas, beliefs and preferences when it comes to saddles. I always think of the Army's view, a saddle was for the horse, and if you ever rode in a real Army McClellan you know it was not designed for a rider. They are a heavy duty oak tree that you can drive over with a truck with a 1/8" of leather cover on the seat. Those saddles will make you learn to sit the canter quickly or give you a butt so sore you can't sit down but they fit a lot of horses of their period. Today we have what seems to be unlimited choice in saddles along with a relatively new service in saddle fitters. We can have our cake and eat it too, horse and rider can be made very comfortable, but we have to ask, what is the cost of comfort for the rider? Take the gel seat saddles. They are very comfortable but for me they muffle the feel of a horse. And what about all those rolls and blocks? Do they stabilize the rider's leg or get in the way? Tree or treeless? Heavy stirrups or light stirrups? Synthetic or leather? Deep seat or flat? High cantle or low? And the biggest question, can a saddle improve your riding? So many choices and decisions. I like a simple saddle with minimal stuffing, no rolls or blocks in the Saumur design, which has survived as a polo saddle. They have great feel and you can move around in them to get out of the way of a low hanging branch or reach for a gate. But I have to comment on a Butet French saddle I once rode in on a student's horse. Up until I sat in that saddle I was of the opinion that all these new fangled saddles with their high tech trees and layered padding were just fluff and marketing. After riding in the Butet I changed my mind. Saddle making has made significant strides in feel and in comfort without the loss of feel. If you can spare $5 or $6,000 I recommend them.
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Post by jimmy on Mar 10, 2016 14:11:52 GMT
I have an old Stubben Zeigfreid close contact. I am not in it a lot, but I am quite comfortable in it when I do what limited jumping I do. I ride in it and jump a little so I don't forget my position. If I was surrounded by more men around me who jumped, I would probably do it much more often.
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Post by rideanotherday on Mar 10, 2016 14:40:28 GMT
When it comes to english/dressage/jumping saddles, I'm afraid I've only really ridden in junk.
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Post by jimmy on Mar 10, 2016 15:16:00 GMT
I say there are no men around me jumping. But truth is, Will Simpson trains right across the road from me, along with another grand pri jumper fellow from Canada. What's my excuse now?
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Post by jacki on Mar 10, 2016 15:17:33 GMT
Laura was riding a 5-year old Dutch warmblood in an indoor arena the other night. The horse spooked going over ground poles, and Laura was thrown off for the first time in years. The cause of the fall was not so much the horse as the dressage saddle she was using (it's the horse owner's only saddle). The high cantle and big leg rolls restricted her ability to balance herself with the horse's movement. He's a great horse, and she would like to train him for field riding, but the saddle is completely inappropriate, bordering on dangerous I think.
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Post by rideanotherday on Mar 10, 2016 16:46:35 GMT
Laura was riding a 5-year old Dutch warmblood in an indoor arena the other night. The horse spooked going over ground poles, and Laura was thrown off for the first time in years. The cause of the fall was not so much the horse as the dressage saddle she was using (it's the horse owner's only saddle). The high cantle and big leg rolls restricted her ability to balance herself with the horse's movement. He's a great horse, and she would like to train him for field riding, but the saddle is completely inappropriate, bordering on dangerous I think.
Unless the equipment fails, it's not my first choice for blaming a fall. A high cantle, well, if you ask barrel racers, that's necessary to keep you IN the seat. There's no shame in losing your seat on a hard spook. It happens to the best.
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Saddles
Mar 10, 2016 17:14:03 GMT
via mobile
Post by rideforever on Mar 10, 2016 17:14:03 GMT
I'm not familiar with "field riding". Please define?
Because we ride in fields all the time and it's usually part of the training process
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Post by horseguy on Mar 10, 2016 20:11:10 GMT
I'm not familiar with "field riding". Please define? Because we ride in fields all the time and it's usually part of the training process Field riding to an English rider is an old military term, meaning "over terrain" as opposed to riding in an arena. "Field" is also used in fox hunting to define the followers who ride in groups behind the Staff riders who work the pack of hounds. First Field is the fastest group, Second (if there are only two fields) Field tends to go as fast as the slowest rider and avoids dangerous creek crossings and difficult objects riders might encounter. Typically there will be between 6 and 30 riders in a field along with the Field Master who is in charge of the group's safety. If a Hunt Club has many members and the Fields get too big, there will be a third Field added with a Master. I once hunted in a First Field of 46 riders. It was like being stuck on a freeway at an accident.
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Post by horseguy on Mar 11, 2016 14:01:37 GMT
"Unless the equipment fails, it's not my first choice for blaming a fall."
I pretty much agree. A saddle can, however, lure a rider into a position that feels very secure, but it's not. I really dislike those new high cantle, huge knee roll dressage saddles. They "put" your butt in a place that feels helpful, but they are so limited in terms of range of motion, which is after all its goal. I think riders find their center of balance in a simpler saddle that makes them find centered, not one that places them there. If you don't find it yourself, you never really learn where it is.
Jimmy, if you were in the east, I'd get you jumping whatever get in the way chasing hounds.
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Post by jimmy on Mar 11, 2016 14:08:01 GMT
"Jimmy, if you were in the east, I'd get you jumping whatever get in the way chasing hounds."
I would dig that for sure.
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Post by rideanotherday on Mar 11, 2016 14:12:03 GMT
Position isn't everything with riding a spook. As with a lot of things, you let the horse move you. When you tense up or freeze, that's when you lose your seat. (probably why I can't ride a bucking horse).
Barrel racing saddles have a thin, high saddle horn which barrel racers use for handling the forces around the barrels (speed is a huge factor) as well as a higher cantle to push on. Knee rolls really aren't used in western seats, but I think where the stirrups hang ends up putting you in an odd position. Some barrel saddles are better than others when it comes to that. I prefer a "working" western saddle.
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Post by horseguy on Mar 11, 2016 16:20:06 GMT
Position isn't everything with riding a spook. As with a lot of things, you let the horse move you. When you tense up or freeze, that's when you lose your seat. (probably why I can't ride a bucking horse). I think it is useful to make a distinction between position and place. A saddle "places" you on a horse. Once placed you assume a position. Both place and position can be effected by the saddle. For example some saddles place you behind or ahead of the horse's center of balance. Some can also lock you into a position. If a saddle does both, that's really bad. Am I making sense? It's another feel thing about centered balance, which allows or encourages a shared balance with as opposed to on a horse. This is why I prefer a minimal saddle that fits in a way that it places you in the center of balance. I can take it from there with position if the saddle does not get in the way.
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Post by rideanotherday on Mar 11, 2016 17:00:28 GMT
Position isn't everything with riding a spook. As with a lot of things, you let the horse move you. When you tense up or freeze, that's when you lose your seat. (probably why I can't ride a bucking horse). I think it is useful to make a distinction between position and place. A saddle "places" you on a horse. Once placed you assume a position. Both place and position can be effected by the saddle. For example some saddles place you behind or ahead of the horse's center of balance. Some can also lock you into a position. If a saddle does both, that's really bad. Am I making sense? It's another feel thing about centered balance, which allows or encourages a shared balance with as opposed to on a horse. This is why I prefer a minimal saddle that fits in a way that it places you in the center of balance. I can take it from there with position if the saddle does not get in the way. It does make sense. Maybe it's because I haven't (until fairly recently) been able to afford good gear that I don't place reliance on saddles for much. I've ridden in some HORRIBLE saddles and they didn't really make much difference in what happened if a horse spooked. If I've gotten too trusting of a horse or mentally checked out (neither are recommended), that's when I've lost my seat due to spooking. I don't have a lot of experience with excessive knee rolls. Is that like riding a really fat horse? Things that are noticeable to me as far as affecting my place/position on the horse are primarily revolving around where the stirrups are rigged / hang in relation to the seat. Stirrups that are rigged too far forward give you a "chair" style seat, which I don't care for and find it really taxing to ride.
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Post by jacki on Mar 11, 2016 17:28:09 GMT
The point I was trying to make in my original post is that using a highly specialized saddle for other than its intended use can be not only impractical but potentially dangerous. This horse spooked going over ground rails -- its hind end went really low -- like a low, crooked levade -- then leapt quickly sideways. Laura went out over its shoulder and landed on her hip. This was all in an indoor arena. She was not hurt; in fact, she got back on and made him do it again correctly. I don't think this horse has been ridden anywhere except an indoor arena, and Laura would like to take him outside. Her specialty is what I call "field riding" - varied terrain, slopes, drops, ditches, varied footing, etc. Such "big maneuvers" as in the spooked behavior, while not the norm, are not uncommon in that type of riding. The saddle she was using is a "high level dressage saddle" with a high cantle and very large, long, wide padded knee rolls. It's also a size or two too big for her. The effect is that it places her very far forward in her seat, preventing her from "sitting deep" (can't put a lot of weight in her seat) and she is not free to move her legs/knees very much. In a flat arena, it's not really a big deal - she can even jump him a couple feet; however, I can't imagine her doing steep terrain, bank jumps, downhill jumps, etc. with that saddle. (*I am a mom, not a rider. )
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Post by horseguy on Mar 11, 2016 18:33:27 GMT
... I don't have a lot of experience with excessive knee rolls. Is that like riding a really fat horse? Things that are noticeable to me as far as affecting my place/position on the horse are primarily revolving around where the stirrups are rigged / hang in relation to the seat. Stirrups that are rigged too far forward give you a "chair" style seat, which I don't care for and find it really taxing to ride. Knee rolls are intended to keep your leg from going too far forward. They are essentially bulges on the flap just in front of your knee. These are so big that students tend to "kneel" on them, which makes for an odd balance but a also strangely secure feeling. The get in the way of so many rebalances over terrain. Yes, its nice to have a stop point that hey can create, like a backstop, but that small advantage is out weighed for me by their restriction. It is best, I think, to learn to ride with none of these things and once you have a good seat use them sparingly.
I big deal trend now is to have them attach under the flap with Velcro so you can switch them to bigger or smaller.
Now they are putting these bulge behind your calf and calling them "calf blocks"
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In this saddle you see a big area of black Velcro so you can place these things anywhere you like. I think that is dangerous in terms of students because it could potentially insure they will fix their leg in the wrong position which will create chronic balance issues.
I think back to the cavalry officers saddles. Surely they were smart enough to make rolls of any kind or shape, but they almost never did. I have a British officer's saddle with a tiny knee roll, hardly worth adding to the saddle, but it's there. I think all this is just part of the trend to "purchase a solution" to a riding issue instead of just becoming a better rider through work.
Regarding the stirrups in terms of the stirrup hanger location on the saddle tree, that's a hugely important thing in how a saddle positions you in or outside the horse/rider combined center of mass in motion. I have seen cheap English saddles from India that get it all wrong. The Indian saddle manufacturers don't ride, so they might use a dressage tree, that would have the hangers back a little for a longer stirrup length, for a jumping saddle. That resulting rider body center placement will make a good jumping position nearly impossible. It is always better to buy a used jumping saddle from England or the continent before a new Indian, Pakistani or other non-riding nation saddle. Some people must have new but new and cheap are a dangerous combination in saddles.
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