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Post by horseguy on Sept 24, 2015 13:17:55 GMT
I have left the farm and moved to a city. I have posted on the internet and elsewhere to find a few students who I could teach at their farms or boarding barns. The uniform experience I have encountered with virtually every rider who has inquired, is a mismatched horse and rider combination. The worst example is a family that bought an aged Haflinger mare with a table top wide back and a fat barrel the size of a Warmblood's for a 7 year old delicate girl who would have to do a yoga like leg spread just to sit on the horse's back. When I pointed out the physical impossibility of the combination of her daughter and this horse's impossibly wide back, she said, Oh, I didn't notice that". The other notable combination is a 30 something woman with a middle aged very athletic and lazy minded horse that objects to work with dangerous physicality that, in my opinion, the horse has learned to intimidate the average rider. This horse's commitment is to not work, and when pushed to do so drops his head in a threatening buck posture and begins to crow hop with a twist. This horse will use lateral movement, backing up and stopping to evade a simple riding exercise like a lead change of transition, IF he is not in the mood.
These riders are not buying riding horses, they are buying pets that, by the way, they hope to ride. In essence, I am not teaching riding here, but rather trying hard to help people sort out how they or their children match with a horse or pony. Amazing as it seems to me, I get responses to my observations like, "She (the Haflinger) had such a pretty mane and tail.
It's hard to fault a family trying to buy their child a pony, but I have to wonder how any thought of practicality vanished at the point of decision to buy a mount with a back only a 6'6" bow legged cowboy could ride comfortably.
The others I have encountered are a mix of horses, almost all with temperament issue, that the owners have been working around instead of working through. The irony is that probably my favorite training process is working a horse through a behavior issue. After looking back on over 40 years of training, I would say that only 15% tops of the horses I have had the pleasure of training have been horses that were in effect "clean pieces of paper" that were unridden and unspoiled. The rest have been Thoroughbreds off the track, auction rejects (with great conformation), and injured horses I felt I could rehab. Theoretically, I would be in retirement heaven being faced with all these quirky horses that need some adjustments in their attitude and movement, but that's not the case. Instead, what I get from the majority of the horse owners I meet is a desire to work around, not through a training issue.
My experiences over the past months reminds me of a dog trainer I met a while back. This trainer was an advocate of the non-correction school of dog training. At first, I thought the trainer was kidding, so I asked how does the dog know what you want if you do not correct him when he gets it wrong? I then learned that in this method there is no right and wrong, no pass or fail. It's about the dog not being stressed and if a state of unstressedness is achieved, then the dog is a joyous pet. The process of non-correction dog training goes something like this. You are walking your dog on a leash and the dog pulls hard on the leash. Correction would be the person training touching the dog's butt with their toe, a Caesar Milan technique, or the common snap of the leash. ( Caesar's rise to TV fame and authority in dog training is seen as a setback to the non-correction crowd.) The "correct" non-correction is to lower the dog's stress because that's why he is pulling on the leash. It is believed if the dog owner removes the stress by leaving a context, giving support, treats, and other destressors to the dog, the dog's behavior will change. Of course it will. It's called distraction.
So, I asked what about a working dog, like a police dog. It's the middle of the night. The police K-9 dog is pursuing a suspect in an empty dark building. The dog balks at his work. How does the handler distress their animal? Leave the scene? While I am sure the handler would encourage the dog with voice and try to lower their dog's stress, but the complete avoidance of stress prescribed by their non-correction movement simply will not work. The dog has a job to do. What does the non-correction movement have as their answer to this? It is cruel to make a dog do a job.
Amazing, I think. Let's put the K-9 dog back in the van and send in police officers into the dark building instead. The officers, most with families to support, might get shot, but the dog will be spared stress.
Anyway, I am getting a lot of non-correction kinds of feedback to my suggestions of working horses through a behavior glitch. I'm open to suggestions. [/p]
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Post by jimmy on Sept 25, 2015 13:39:06 GMT
I am teaching several grown adults how to ride and be around horses. The horses around that are appropriate, the ones that won't get them killed or injured, are usually the slightly spoiled ones, because most of the people they are around are so green.
One of the problems is the idea people have of what horses are like in their heads, which is not the reality.
What is difficult to get across is not to indulge the horse in his every whim, or dote on his every move. Once you put the halter on him in the field and start leading him to the barn, you are in charge. You can't let him pull you over here and there for a bite of grass, or push you out of his way, or stop and stare at something. He doesn't need constant reassurance every step, either.
It comes off as being bossy, or even brutish, or uncaring, but I am trying to show them these things lead to getting hurt. It is hard to teach them that their leniency or permissiveness one day, will lead to something dangerous, like getting stepped on, run over, knocked down.
Even in leading, when they let the horse dictate when and where he will go, I will tell them when the horse just ran away with them at the walk. They don't get that, but it is what really happened. Most every day until they get more educated, they do at least three things that could have lead to serious injury, and they are unaware of it. I find myself wanting a drink after a session.
Teaching very basic control of a horse is a difficult thing.
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Post by jacki on Sept 25, 2015 14:19:21 GMT
My daughter was taught well how to take charge of a horse, not the other way around, but I have found that at different barns, there is a different "atmosphere", more of a "horses are pets"-type attitude, and at 14, I just hope it doesn't rub off on her! I think she would LOVE working with that older athletic horse that jumps and twists, etc when he doesn't feel like working - she would probably say he had great potential. The horse she's riding now is 12 or 13 and she's trying to train him to do lead changes correctly. She has only ridden him a few times, but she found that when jumping in the arena, he gets "confused" and his back half will be on a left lead while he's leading with his right in front and vice versa. When she warms him up, he gets the correct lead every time. He's a willing horse and loves to jump, but somewhere in the middle of the jump he is doing something weird with his feet. I suspect his owner has been as you said working "around" the problem or at least letting him get away with it too often. He is an eventing horse, and the owner commented that she was glad dressage was first because this "confusion" happens in the jumping portion, but the judges apparently don't care what the horse's feet are doing so long as it doesn't knock down a rail. I think it's a dangerous thing, particularly coming into winter, and my daughter has the patience and stubbornness and hopefully the training to "fix" it.
Love the "my pretty pony" pic. Nice touch!
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Post by horseguy on Sept 25, 2015 14:47:52 GMT
One of the problems is the idea people have of what horses are like in their heads, which is not the reality... Teaching very basic control of a horse is a difficult thing.
Adults who "love horses' are the most difficult in my experience, and while the l love of horses is a very good thing, I agree that it frequently leads to unreal perceptions of safety/danger regarding horses. Back when I had an equine therapy program in a locked facility for boys the clinical director told be the line between everyday neurosis and clinical psychosis if the difference between distortion and delusion. I have found that information very valuable in dealing with adult beginners. I tend to divide adult beginner into three types, (1) scared new riders, (2) new riders who have distorted ideas of the nature of horses and (3) delusional new riders. Notice there is not a category of new rider who are spot-on about horses. That's because I have yet to meet one.
In a practical way, the scared new rider is the safest and easiest to teach. By gaining experience with a horse, they soon learn how predictable and free of hidden agendas trained horses are. It is not long that real trust builds from experience and the new rider forms a pretty true reality about horses. The new rider with a distorted view of horses are, in my experience, teachable. Typically they see horses as big dogs, which of course they are not. I teach these riders the differences between dogs and horses, for example the different capacity for vocabulary. A German researcher found a dog with a 400 plus word vocabulary by using a room filled with toys and testing hundreds of commands like, fetch big stick, etc. I have yet to meet a horse with more than an six word vocabulary, walk, trot, canter, whoa, stand, and back. This difference intrigues an open minded new rider. Eventually, as people understand the difference between dogs and cats, these distorted reality new riders get the difference between dogs and horses. Most do anyway.
And then you have the delusional new riders. I have to split this description into two parts. I'll begin with men who want to learn riding, most come with standard male confidence. They feel they can overcome and get a desired result in just about anything using physical/athletic energy and ability. This delusion is often coupled with a view that a horse is not that much different than a motorcycle. During my 25 plus year polo career I observed countless men, often newly rich, who wanted to play polo but had no riding experience. Look out! It usually takes a big injury to wake these guys from their delusional macho guy idea of horses and their "use". Females in this third category of delusional beginners who come to riding for the first time have a different delusional structure. They typically love horses more than anyone ever has. These adult women have read books on horses since childhood and have what they experience as a deep bond with the equine species. This bond is remarkably similar to that of a mother with her child, thus the boarding barn jargon of "I'm Old Blue's mommy". When I hear this "mommy" stuff I am often tempted to say, wow that must have been one heck of a birth canal experience (never gets a laugh). I do admire how much a devoted maternal woman will put into a horse, but sadly that energy most often is misplaced and does little more than create a spoiled monster of an equine. In the view of the "mommy" horse owner, trainers like me and you Jimmy are mean. The fact that they read Misty of Chincoteague and Black Beauty at age 7 in their mind equals your decades of on the ground horse training. They are the most difficult to teach in my experience. It is regularly scary dangerous to be around them and a horse.
So what do you do? After telling them I have ridden for over 60 years and trained horses for more than 40 years, I ask them how many broken bones do they think I have. The answer is more than I can remember. Now most people can very accurately list their broken bones, but many life long horse trainers can't. Then I tell them I can list collapsed lungs, and serious spinal injuries. I go on and on until they cringe, and then I say, "And I am experienced with horses. You have zip experience". Some get it. But the hard core mommys usually don't. I suspect that they think, "All those horses hurt you because you are mean". At that point you as an instructor are faced with a difficult dilemma. Do you stick with them and their delusion until they get a wake-up injury, or do you exit because you do not want to be around or be associated with a potentially serious horse related injury? By now in my career, I usually say thank you and good bye.
So, good luck Jimmy. And just so you know, my experience is that the impulse to have a drink after a lesson where you struggle to establish reality with students is pretty darn normal. 
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Post by horseguy on Jan 7, 2016 15:49:16 GMT
... What is difficult to get across is not to indulge the horse in his every whim, or dote on his every move. Once you put the halter on him in the field and start leading him to the barn, you are in charge. You can't let him pull you over here and there for a bite of grass, or push you out of his way, or stop and stare at something. He doesn't need constant reassurance every step, either.
It comes off as being bossy, or even brutish, or uncaring, but I am trying to show them these things lead to getting hurt. It is hard to teach them that their leniency or permissiveness one day, will lead to something dangerous, like getting stepped on, run over, knocked down.
Even in leading, when they let the horse dictate when and where he will go, I will tell them when the horse just ran away with them at the walk. They don't get that, but it is what really happened. Most every day until they get more educated, they do at least three things that could have lead to serious injury, and they are unaware of it. I find myself wanting a drink after a session. Teaching very basic control of a horse is a difficult thing.
Perception of animals is, I believe, 90% or more a projection of the human's idea of the animal, and almost nothing of the true nature of the animal. I moved to a city six months ago, so I have to walk my dog. We both had to learn how to do that. The biggest problem is encountering a pedestrian on a sidewalk here. Virtually every person displays fear of dogs. They will cross to the other side of the street when they see me coming with my hound that would lick their face off and tremble in anticipation of being petted. But as much as he loves them, they fear him.
Jimmy, your description of your students is so the way it is. Maybe it's the movies that create the horse/pet illusion, the movies where horses are always the heroes, except for Buck the movie where that stallion kept trying to kill people. But I think there is more to the difficulty of teaching or establishing a horse/rider relationship based in reality. In our present culture, teachers are not respected as they were 25 or 50 years ago and that is a big problem. Students today do not expect their reality to be challenged.
When I was a kid and the instructor said, "Be careful of that horse" we were immediately scared to death of that horse. I think this was because there were so few illusions presented as part of our instruction. My favorite was the part of the lesson at the beginning where we did several circles in the yard (arena) before we rode out onto terrain. These circles were to see if any tack would slide or fall off. Every once in a while a girth would be so loose as to slide the saddle around and hang from the horse's belly, having put the rider on the ground. Our mounted instructor would calmly and loudly say, "halt" and we would stand still while the rider got up, re-saddled, and then we'd ride a few more circles. Nothing was said, but the message was clear, you are responsible for your tack.
Today when students arrive, their expectation is they can have a "good time" and stay in the reality that they brought with them to the farm from their home or job. The teacher's job in their expectation is to protect their mind from reality, which includes protecting their body.
I am glad in some ways that I am retired from teaching riding. As the years wore on it became more challenging to tell people that I would not protect them, and to let them know that my expectation was that 75% of new students would leave because I would not coddle them. You can imagine the reputation I gained over the years. It would get back to me that I was unfriendly, scary, mean, and all kinds of other descriptors that people who smash other people's realities receive. But I taught for the 25% who stayed. They wanted to really ride and I taught them how.
I have been here in the city for six months. I posted on craigslist that I would teach a few students. I have met four riders and taught them. Three are gone now, one remains. It's about 25% who really want to get beyond their cultural idea of a horse and learn what horses are truly like. The rest cling to some idea of horsemanship that they enjoy, unreal as it might be to me. My advice to riding instructors is to learn early that you are looking for the 25% and quickly give up hope for the 75%.
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Post by rideanotherday on Jan 7, 2016 16:03:55 GMT
Not every method works for every horse. Not every method works for every rider. Junking the 75% because they don't conform to your methods...it seems unsuccessful to me. I'd think there would be a way to get your message across without alienating or driving clientele away. There is a reason I don't put myself out there for training or lessons. I don't like people enough to tailor lessons.
Some dogs (horses, humans) benefit from a non-confrontational, success driven training system. They need the confidence building. Some need their attitudes firmly adjusted.
Dreams are the reason women get into trouble with horses. There's a difference between what a rider is capable of and what the horse is appropriate for. Beating someone up for dreaming is a fast way to drive them off. In that sort of situation is more about relationship therapy.
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Post by horseguy on Jan 7, 2016 16:27:50 GMT
Not every method works for every horse. Not every method works for every rider. Junking the 75% because they don't conform to your methods...it seems unsuccessful to me. I'd think there would be a way to get your message across without alienating or driving clientele away. There is a reason I don't put myself out there for training or lessons. I don't like people enough to tailor lessons... Beating someone up for dreaming is a fast way to drive them off. In that sort of situation is more about relationship therapy. I sense a contradiction here. On one hand I read, "Not every method works for every rider. Junking the 75% because they don't conform to your methods...it seems unsuccessful to me." And on the other I read, There is a reason I don't put myself out there for training or lessons. I don't like people enough to tailor lessons."It would seem to me that the choice is clear, either you tailor your lessons to suit a student, or you don't, and when you don't today, they tend to leave. Also, describing the process of conveying the reality that a 1,000 animal with an independent will can be dangerous to life and limb as "beating someone up for dreaming" seems somewhat unfair to the instructor who needs to maintain their insurance, which gets canceled after a big claim from an injured student. I will admit that the statement, "In that sort of situation is more about relationship therapy" made me smile. If I said it once, I said it a million times, I regularly threatened to put a sign up on the signpost at the beginning of the farm driveway that said, NO PSYCHOLIGICAL SERVICES OFFED AT THIS LOCATION. How did the expectation of a universal therapeutic environment get started anyway?  |
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Post by rideanotherday on Jan 7, 2016 17:11:08 GMT
I said that I wouldn't put myself out there because I know that wanting to tailor is NOT a skill I have. I am aware of myself. Putting yourself out there as a trainer *should* mean you have that skill. I don't like people all that well. Why should I do something I don't enjoy?
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Post by horseguy on Jan 7, 2016 17:39:12 GMT
I said that I wouldn't put myself out there because I know that wanting to tailor is NOT a skill I have. I am aware of myself. Putting yourself out there as a trainer *should* mean you have that skill... I must say that I am the same way. I have spent the bulk of my life living at the end of long driveways that lead to places people don't come unless they want to ride a horse well. My claim is that I can relate to horses, and if you want to relate to horses, I can tell you about that. I make no claim that I can relate to people. Furthermore, I think a reasonable implication of my claim is I am unwilling or unskilled at much else. As I said, 75% of the population wants more. Sorry, don't offer it. You raised the question of success earlier. You said that you thought going on 25% of the market would not make a successful business. It did for me in most ways. My formula for the horse business is that boarding pays the overhead. Lessons pay the other bills, and selling horses is where the profit is. In my experience boarding is the most difficult part of the human side of the business. Today a lot of barns make the bulk of their income from lessons and that is why they have substituted "fun", coddling, therapy and all sorts of other things for plain good riding instruction. That is why it is so hard to find a good riding instructor that will teach you good basic and higher level skills. It sounds to me like you could be that much sought after teacher if you could put aside all the judgment that would come with it. People are tough, demanding, self focused, etc. To be a truly efficient high quality instructor today you need to "not care" in a way what people think of you. One of my favorite experiences was with a woman who rescheduled more than half her lessons because she was "so busy". She drove the brightest red Cadillac I ever saw. Everything about her was self focused. A horse to her was a conveyance that she could tell her friends about in a way that added to her social standing. She came late to her lesson one day and I told her I could no longer teach her. She offered an in-depth explanation of how her life was so important that I had to adjust my life to accommodate hers. I just looked at her and said, "There is always a reason people can't learn". It was the first time she was speechless. I figured she's leave and tell all her friends how I kicked her out of the program, but what she probably didn't get was I considered that a favor because they would never come down my driveway. Meanwhile, I had people traveling from other states, staying in hotel rooms for private 2 or 3 day private clinics because they could not find a teacher that could really teach riding where they lived. There is a market for real teachers. You might want to consider it. |
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Post by rideforever on Jan 7, 2016 18:29:14 GMT
Knowing rideanotherday the way I do, her skills do not lean towards teach people. On the other hand I enjoy it. I like working with young horses and seeing that "ah-hah" moment when the horse finally realized you aren't crazy. I like showing people how to better understand their horse, and get them both on the same path. I've seen very few matches that couldn't work. Some need education or just coping skills.
I don't coddle folks (or horses), but I'm willing to work with what they are, and where they are at.
But, I also make folks articulate what their goals are. If all they want to do is own a horse just to own a horse.... There are other instructors for that. If they want to learn horsemanship, how to be a better athlete? I can help them out
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Post by rideanotherday on Jan 7, 2016 18:49:32 GMT
I am teaching several grown adults how to ride and be around horses.
Even in leading, when they let the horse dictate when and where he will go, I will tell them when the horse just ran away with them at the walk. They don't get that, but it is what really happened. Most every day until they get more educated, they do at least three things that could have lead to serious injury, and they are unaware of it. I find myself wanting a drink after a session.
Teaching very basic control of a horse is a difficult thing.
God loves fools and children. And for Horseguy...I'm still too much of a student to teach. |
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Post by horseguy on Jan 7, 2016 19:04:16 GMT
I don't coddle folks (or horses), but I'm willing to work with what they are, and where they are at. That's me too. If someone is committed, I will make a very large commitment to helping them. I don't care what their level is or what horse they have. |
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Post by horseguy on Jan 7, 2016 19:13:57 GMT
And for Horseguy...I'm still too much of a student to teach. The main thing is feel. If you have a feel for horses you can teach at some level. All you need are students who have a less direct connection with a horse than you do. They might even have more technical skills than you, but they cannot feel what is happening. This type student arrives with "a horse problem" or so they say. I have had many students who "didn't need any riding instruction" but their horse needed to change a lead or strop refusing jumps, etc. They were convinced that they were fine and their horse was the issue. I actually learned a lot from these folks. They'd do their thing, and I'd watch their horse and give them feedback on what the horse was experiencing. Inevitably my advice to the rider went something like this, "You are a very good rider but your horse is getting confused by all your skill. Do less." And then I became something of an editor of their overwhelming and unrelenting cues. My point is, if you have feel and you have an eye for how a horse experiences a rider, you can start new riders and you can coach higher level riders who have less feel, and there are a surprising number of these. |
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Post by rideanotherday on Jan 7, 2016 19:17:14 GMT
I spend a lot of time watching "tape"...YouTube has a lot of videos. Since riding hasn't been on the list of approved activities due to my knee (next week though!), reading and watching have been it.
I'm trying to find a barn that would be willing to do 15-20 min longe line lessons. I have a lot of leg to build back up.
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