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Post by rideanotherday on May 3, 2016 11:34:29 GMT
So here we have Clinton "fixing" a horse that won't stand for mounting. I have so many problems with his approach. What I see in this video is a horse that is missing fundamental skills like understanding pressure and how to stand still or what "whoa" means.
The saddle needs a breast collar to keep it in place. The horse needs a different bit and longer reins. And if anyone EVER yanked on my horse's face like that...I believe I would lose a few years of civilization. I understand that not all training is pretty. Yanking a horse that is confused to the point that they feel no recourse but to throw themselves over backwards is shitty.
When they made training into quasi-entertainment, they sent horseman back to the dark ages.
Clinton can ride. I absolutely give him that. I watched him ride at Paso Robles at the Snaffle Bit Futurity (reined cowhorse). He can put a run together for sure. But he's a jerk to horses.
What I would do if I were presented with this horse and rider would be to correct saddle issues (and teach her that the back cinch needs to be up against the horse where it belongs) and get an appropriate bit. Most of the work would be back to basics on the ground. The horse would be lead forward, stop and stand. I would go to the side of the horse and stand and let the horse just be calm. Then there would be some work, followed by stop and stand still. Bring the horse up to the mounting block. Stop and stand. I know stuff like that doesn't make for great tv. It's boring. But it is so necessary. You certainly don't blame the horse for not knowing better when you clearly haven't taught the horse to do what you want.
What would you do?
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Post by jimmy on May 3, 2016 13:47:52 GMT
Videos like these remind me of the techniques used in info-mercials for the latest gadget. Take the latest no stick frying pan.
They show how easy a fried egg slides around the pan and never sticks. Then they compare that to a scene where someone is doing a hatchet job of trying to fry an egg in some really crappy pan, burning it, scrambling it, spilling it, trying to scrape it out. As if that was how normal people tried to fry an egg until the wonder pan came out. Sure, no one could fry an egg before this!
So here's this lady who can't even get on, and her horse rears and jumps and bucks. I'd say she has a lot more problems then getting on.
But the video sure plays up the worse.
There is not much art to what Clinton is doing. Pretty easy to rough up a spoiled horse, jerk him around, rock his world, and something is going to change. All that is needed is that you don't give a crap what happens. He will stand still. Nothing really "methodical" about it. We used to call it a Come to Jesus.
You can't accuse Clinton of not doing enough! He goes from one to ten in a hurry. There is no zero to one. There is no looking to see how little it takes. And it's easy to show a change with a really spoiled horse. Just like the person who can't figure out how to fry and egg. It will look like magic when you show them.
Clinton's "method" is pretty much complete submission in a horse. There is nothing really inspiring about it. Unless you are a dummy who can't fry an egg.
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Post by horseguy on May 4, 2016 21:36:54 GMT
Computer acting up. Cannot play video again. Will try tomorrow.
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Post by jimmy on May 5, 2016 0:55:34 GMT
I used to watch the horse. I still do, but I watch the person. There is always a moment, or moment, before the horse moved, that a person could have stopped it, or changed something, or redirected.
We have a rein on each side of the horse. Most of the time, when someone gets on, they pull on their inside rein without realizing it. I might teach someone to use the outside rein.
What I try to get working is to use the natural inclination of a horse to move his hind quarters the opposite direction of the rein being pulled. If you can get that working on both sides, when the horse begins to move away, you can use your outside rein to bring the horse back to center.
If I can possibly avoid getting into a horse so deep like Clinton, I do. I work on the person's skills. Use your reins, move the horse left and right, stop the horse, back the horse up. Control the feet. Get the horse ready to get on. This is difficult for people, because it puts the responsibility on them, instead of all on the horse.
Clinton's methods are all about correcting the horse after the fact. A person could try and head things off and avoid that all together.
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Post by rideanotherday on May 5, 2016 13:18:57 GMT
I used to watch the horse. I still do, but I watch the person. There is always a moment, or moment, before the horse moved, that a person could have stopped it, or changed something, or redirected. We have a rein on each side of the horse. Most of the time, when someone gets on, they pull on their inside rein without realizing it. I might teach someone to use the outside rein. What I try to get working is to use the natural inclination of a horse to move his hind quarters the opposite direction of the rein being pulled. If you can get that working on both sides, when the horse begins to move away, you can use your outside rein to bring the horse back to center. If I can possibly avoid getting into a horse so deep like Clinton, I do. I work on the person's skills. Use your reins, move the horse left and right, stop the horse, back the horse up. Control the feet. Get the horse ready to get on. This is difficult for people, because it puts the responsibility on them, instead of all on the horse. Clinton's methods are all about correcting the horse after the fact. A person could try and head things off and avoid that all together. Softness is a state of mind for the horse. When you continually go at a horse and scare and force, they learn how to be on the muscle and fight rather than calmly accepting correction. It does happen that a horse does need to learn and be humbled, but the only thing a horse learns when you force them over backwards like that is they can be hurt when they are scared and confused. If I were that owner, Clinton would be buying me a new saddle. The rider should prep the horse better for standing still and be able to mount without yanking on the reins, nor poking their toe into the side of the horse. The first thing they should do after getting on is to let the horse stand. Possibly flex side to side. |
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Post by horseguy on May 6, 2016 20:57:24 GMT
... What I try to get working is to use the natural inclination of a horse to move his hind quarters the opposite direction of the rein being pulled. If you can get that working on both sides, when the horse begins to move away, you can use your outside rein to bring the horse back to center... What you describe is how we keep a horse underneath himself at speed over terrain, especially when it is frozen or slippery. Using the reins in this way to control the hind placement and direction of movement in relation to the center/spine involves a very complex set to physical reactions to the use of rein pressure, if you think about it, but we try not to think about it. It just works in a very natural way. At speed on a slippery slope, this method it the safest way by far to keep a horse up off the ground. At the same time, if you over use this rein technique, you can spin a horse out to the left by over use of the right rein. |
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Post by jimmy on May 6, 2016 21:16:16 GMT
... What I try to get working is to use the natural inclination of a horse to move his hind quarters the opposite direction of the rein being pulled. If you can get that working on both sides, when the horse begins to move away, you can use your outside rein to bring the horse back to center... What you describe is how we keep a horse underneath himself at speed over terrain, especially when it is frozen or slippery. Using the reins in this way to control the hind placement and direction of movement in relation to the center/spine involves a very complex set to physical reactions to the use of rein pressure, if you think about it, but we try not to think about it. It just works in a very natural way. At speed on a slippery slope, this method it the safest way by far to keep a horse up off the ground. At the same time, if you over use this rein technique, you can spin a horse out to the left by over use of the right rein. Which is when our leg comes into play! As for getting on, if someone would use their reins correctly, they could stop the horse with a rein, one or the other or both. I have helped a few people with a horse not standing still. They say, he won't stand still. I say, well use your rein and stop him! Oh, I can't, the rein doesn't work so well. Okay, there's your problem. Lets get your rein working. And that is where we start teaching. One thing about Clinton Anderson I will say. At least he gets right into it. As in, this is bullshit, let's fix it now! I appreciate the sentiment. Just not always the method. |
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Post by horseguy on May 7, 2016 15:07:41 GMT
"the rein doesn't work"
I love those kind of statements. It reveals a mindset like a horse is a car, as in "the heater doesn't work". I try sometimes to get into the mindset of the average rider today and sometimes I get this feeling a common perception of a horse is a cross between a vehicle and a pet. But that's not so weird, many people name their cars.
I too like the intention contained in "let's fix it now". After teaching for many years with pretty strict "lesson plans" I came to realize that the only thing you can predetermine in a lesson is the task. For example, with a jumping student I might plan to teach establishing an effective approach to a jump when coming out of a bend as a specific technique. I used to list all the techniques, i.e. reins, leg, etc. and plan how to get all that in within an hour lesson (my apologies to all those early students of mine for that). Eventually I learned that I could give a better lesson if I described the task, and then observed the biggest obstacle to the rider's success that day. I rider might collapse their core in the bend and drop their inside shoulder, thus screwing up the approach, or something else. I learned that that issue was the one thing to "fix now", even if it took up the entire lesson. I think that's the fastest way to help student riders progress.
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Post by jimmy on May 7, 2016 15:29:03 GMT
Speaking of that, Horseguy, I took a jumping lesson from Will Simpson the other day. He rides some horses right across the road from me.
The first thing he fixed was my "eye" He first imitated me, swiveling my head all over the place, looking up, looking down, finally looking at the jump. He said you take one look, and after that, you look no where else. Your first look is your last. So when you look for the next jump, that's it. You don't look twice. When he fixed my eyes, he fixed my line and approach.
I didn't mind him making fun of me. I didn't go there to feel good, or be praised for something. I went there to be better and learn something.
I was happy, however, that he never corrected my riding. Jumping is not my discipline. I figured he would fix my position in the saddle. But he never mentioned it. He fixed my eyes. and the rest of the lesson went smoothly.
Unfortunately, he is leaving for grand pre tour, and won't be back until August. The other instructor was this 21 year old German kid, Not that I wouldn't learn something. But he wouldn't have the depth of experience and talent that Will has.
Interesting the Will is a fan of Buck Brannaman, and has attended his clinics. he was riding a young prospect with western split reins and a loose ring snaffle. Like I said earlier, had I been exposed to more men like him, I would have taken up jumping a long time ago. Is 60 to old to learn? LOL
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Post by horseguy on May 8, 2016 15:54:12 GMT
I don't think 60 is to late for an experienced horsemen (term inclusive of women) to make a lateral move to any equestrian sport (except maybe to fast polo). Your neighbor Will is a very good teacher to begin with your eye. Jumping horses can feel where your eyes are. If you change them a lot, they can get nervous about what commitment you expect to the jump.
One of my best student once went to a Jimmy Wafford jumping clinic. He immediately commented on her eyes. I taught her to look past a jump once the horse committed because she was needed, at an unusually young age, for a Whip, in the local hunt in a Staff position. She had to follow hounds at speed in the woods. So she had to learn to get on an effective line, commit her horses and maintain that commitment not with keeping her eyes on the jump but by being steady with her eyes past it, so she didn't land and crash into trees, step in holes etc. She and her horse were highly trained for the specific work of hunting and unknown terrain. At the clinic Jimmy Wafford immediately said, "Someone has taught you to look past the jumps." And he asked why. She told him about her hunting and he said, "Oh".
There are all kinds of "eyes" and a good instructor addresses the basics and then the variations. Will is a stadium jumper. That's an eye. Foxhunters, especially Staff, are a little different eye. I firmly believe that with your feel for a horse, you will quickly learn how the horse uses your eyes to make decisions in jumping. After that you may want to try out "different eyes". I suspect this variation may be similar in cow horses from cutting horses to roping horses.
If I had to summarize the relationship between a skilled jumping horse and a skilled jumping rider, it would be the "dance" of settle-commit. We settle a horse like a bowler stands quietly, eyeing the pins. The bowler begins the movement with a step forward (square zero) and then applies athletic power to the movement toward the foul line that cannot be crossed. That application of power is commitment. Then at the line, the ball is released. The ball and the horse are left at the release to their preparation to get the job done. The horse jumps and strides out after, and the rider begins the dance again by settling the horse after the striding out and saying, "Prepare for another commitment." And so it goes on and on, Settle-commit, settle-commit...
Your feel will help you define what settle or commit means to an individual horse. Some horses need a lot of rein and a deep seat to settle, others require a rein touch like a fly landing on your skin. Some horses require a soft deepening of your seat to commit, while others need a spur and a crack of a crop. And those meanings change as you get to know one another.
There are outliers. The compulsive jumper is one. These are like a hair trigger gun. Point them at the zipcode of a jump and they commit immediately, and go to it like a runaway train. This type does not settle easily, but you never have to worry about their commitment. I love this type in difficult hunt territory. The opposite is the horse who comes back after a big jump like a stone cold killer. They jump five feet with no celebration, nothing, very business like. But many of these are lazy in the commitment, not oppositional, but more like a bored, "Oh, you want me to jump the huge thing again, well OK."
Jumping is great fun and it is a vast landscape of equine psychology in how each geos to a challenging jump. The absolute worst are the gifted ones that don't like to jump. These could make it to the Rolex or to the Olympics, but would prefer a slow Sunday trail ride., frustrating. All are partners in what can be dangerous, if the teamwork is lacking. My advise is to begin with horses that know how to jump and let them teach you. Also, learn the "emergency dismount", which is basically hugging the horse's neck when things go wrong in an approach or landing. Hold on to the neck with a bear hug until your butt is below your head, and then let go so you fall on big bones and muscles. I also advise the inflatable vests that are tethered to you saddle. Not only do they provide a air pillow between you and the ground, they also straighten your spine in a fall so you don't get twisty damage there.
Glad you are jumping. Flying through the air with a 1,000 lb. horse can make your day. |
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