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Post by horseguy on May 19, 2016 9:52:37 GMT
I got a message that asked, "I wanted to know your take on some of the whats been going on in Eventing". It had a link to a study of collapsible cross country fences. "One of the goals of the task force in protecting our horses, riders and the sport is to renew the 2009-2010 Frangible (Collapsible) Fence Study conducted by Dr. Suzanne Smith of the University of Kentucky and supported financially by the USEA and the USEF."
I'm not sure I am the best person top ask because like so many "innovations" and "improvements" I tend to see what is lost as much as what is gained. For example, I see self driving cars as having equal value to self eating hamburgers. The above quote says they are interested in "protecting our horses, riders and the sport". Me too, but that's not new. As long as I can remember rider and horse owners involved in the sport have been committed to protecting our horses, riders and the sport. It's not like it used to be like NASCAR where people came to watch the wrecks. Evening came out of the military, in fact in the beginning it was called "The Military", then "Combined Training, now "Eventing". It's changed. It used to have five parts. Roads and Tracks (endurance) is gone, as is Steeplechase. Each of the now gone tests left slowly. Steeplechase was a real steeplechase with all the horses running together at speed, then it was one horse at a time at speed, then gone. Change has come in increments.
Every cross country course used to have a slide, not as long as this one, but a horse had to slide and often there was a jump in the middle of the slide. I think there is still one on the old Millbrook NY xc course.
Has change been good? Horses used to die in the Roads and Tracks but they were military horses that had to be able to meet certain standards. That change opened the sport to more people and horses, and that is I think, what the real goal is, to let more people in by making it safer, which translates into making it easier.
People need easy now. Mark Phillips is a course designer and Olympic rider who took a lot of heat for his cross country courses. Some people were getting hurt on some of them and they asked him to make "improvements" for safety. His answer was, if someone cannot ride my course safely, then they should not ride it. That would be my answer too, but riders who think like that are getting harder to find. People feel entitled to do just about everything and they need easy, so the answer for some is to make the xc jumps fall down.
Problem is, if you fox hunt, and most of the xc courses when I was young were at or connected to hunt clubs, downed trees do not give way, the footing variations are huge (not so now on xc courses) and sometimes, if you want to keep up the hounds you need to figure out how to do the impossible. But hunt clubs are increasingly grooming their hunt country to keep members and breeding slower running hounds. People need easy.
I guess the direct answer to the question for me is that I am glad I was young when I was young. I doubt I'd be attracted to Eventing if I was young now. I also don't like many hunt clubs either. Hiring an army of illegals to trim branches so expensive hunt coats don't get ripped kind of irks me. Polo has changed the least. The USPA never joined the USEF and the Argies keep it honest.
Life is so different now. The "sport" they want to protect is different than the one I'd protect, but mine would fail today. So, maybe they are doing the best they can. The main point is to enjoy riding a horse and to keep testing your ability to do things together. Whatever your level of skill, courage and stamina, find a higher standard and work toward it with your horse. That's what has made my life with horses meaningful. I think riders can still do that no matter how many "innovations and improvements" our culture demands.
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Post by rideanotherday on May 19, 2016 13:08:59 GMT
Bubble wrap the riders, make the jumps out of foam and people/horses will still get hurt. That's the name of the game when you throw a leg over 1600# animals with minds of their own and add some speed.
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Post by horseguy on May 19, 2016 16:02:20 GMT
I suspect that someday the cross country jumps will be holograms. I had an old style cross country course, the kind where you had to be aware of trees and footing. Now they all look like golf courses so the spectators can see more, especially they can the sponsored jumps. Who doesn't like to see a bunch of shinny new Land Rovers parked in a field? I had a young professional bring a couple students to school on my course a number of years ago. While out on the course the trainer said to me, "You need to cut down some trees. We like to go fast". I answered, "We go fast".
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Post by Maritza on May 19, 2016 18:36:32 GMT
There isn't a day that goes by that I don't miss riding through Triple Creek Farm. I want to start eventing sometime in the not to distant future a goal I have had since I first made the decision to attend the 2015 European Eventing Championship in Scotland. And at times I worry if there will be much of a sport left.
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Post by horseguy on May 19, 2016 20:51:16 GMT
Whatt is left of eventing is diversity. Not many horses or riders can do well in dressage, cross country and stadium jumping. For example, Riley, a great horse by any standard, was wonderful in dressage and cross country, but the confines of an arena combined with tightly placed jumps requiring precision just didn't suit him. He could do precision if there were no jumps, but there was something in his being that made him rush in stadium, and that combined with his huge body was a bull in a china shop. I could have ground down his rushing in the arena but I loved him so much as a hunt horse I didn't want to mess with his essence for fear of dulling him.
So if you are inclined to try eventing, first try it with a well trained horse for the sport, then find a prospect and bring him/her along. Easier said than done. It's challenging. You will find that you get one right and the other two are not at the same level, so you work on the other phases. You get them right and the one you liked at first then might seem to be weak, so you work on that. It reminds me of getting a meal on the table and having the protein, the starch and the vegetables all come out at the same moment and with the same level of quality.
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Post by Maritza on May 19, 2016 21:02:32 GMT
Thanks for the advice/guidance Bob. I have found a 2 places in Colorado that I plan to email some time in July to see which one will help me with my goals and I will certainly keep what you have said in mind.
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Post by Laura on May 20, 2016 0:59:04 GMT
I suspect that someday the cross country jumps will be holograms. I had an old style cross country course, the kind where you had to be aware of trees and footing. Now they all look like golf courses so the spectators can see more, especially they can the sponsored jumps. Who doesn't like to see a bunch of shinny new Land Rovers parked in a field? I had a young professional bring a couple students to school on my course a number of years ago. While out on the course the trainer said to me, "You need to cut down some trees. We like to go fast". I answered, "We go fast". I miss that course. I haven't ridden a single course like it. I loved that jump after doing it the first couple of times, especially on blaze. I think she liked it too, she would gladly do it all day; but she was like that with most jumps . I think eventing has really dumbed down over the years. I have seen a lot of videos of what eventing used to be like and today's equivalent is really not the same. I still enjoy eventing and plan to get back into it this summer, hopefully.
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Post by grayhorse on May 20, 2016 2:39:39 GMT
I was going to start a similar thread, but I think my post/topic could fit here too. Lately my Facebook “newsfeed” has been inundated with articles about XC horses and/or riders who have been hurt or even killed. I’m going to assume the addition of collapsible fences are originating in light of this. I think what HG is saying about things needing to be "easier" is also a contributor.
Seeing these articles consistently popping up got me thinking, have there always been these types of accidents and injuries or are things like social media simply making things more public? Or is it because I am a horse owner who jumps and some algorithm makes it so I see these types of articles more often? Hmmm. The world we live in. Anyhow....I don't know all that much about the history of eventing (aside from what HG just gave us in this thread) so please forgive my ignorance.
This Jim Wofford article popped up on my facebook yesterday. What do you guys think? Is he on point as well? I found the part about "destroying the horses initiative" of particular interest. Thoughts? practicalhorsemanmag.com/article/jim-wofford-eventing-lives-balance-29236
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Post by horseguy on May 20, 2016 3:07:36 GMT
It late. I'm tired. I read as far as "To claim that recent fatalities are because "riding too fast produces bad jumping" is to reveal an abysmal ignorance about what horses can do when trained in self-carriage and ridden in balance."
Jim Wofford is the gold standard of thought on the subject of eventing. His father taught at Fort Riley. I've had the pleasure of exchanging ideas over the years but I don't really know him.
I will finish the article tomorrow, but for now I suspect where he is going is that we must ride better. He says that there is an "an abysmal ignorance about what horses can do". That is my feeling. Very few riders today have any real idea of what a horse is capable of. And therefore, the answer to safety is not in the jumps, or in the rules or in anything but in the rider understanding what a horse is capable of. The riders today don't seem to want to find out.
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Post by jimmy on May 20, 2016 5:52:38 GMT
Thanks for the advice/guidance Bob. I have found a 2 places in Colorado that I plan to email some time in July to see which one will help me with my goals and I will certainly keep what you have said in mind. My daughter< Katy Groesbeck, is training and taking students near Denver. I can't remember now the name of the place she is training. If you are near there, look her up! Jim
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Post by horseguy on May 20, 2016 10:29:12 GMT
Wofford, "In our sport, we have been jumping the same size fences at the same speed for three-quarters of a century, yet suddenly we are suffering rotational falls." He goes on to say that changes in course design have been blamed for this change and then says, in response to contemporary riders being perplexed by "new" technical questions jumps, "the riders were perplexed and the jump caused some problems. However, the military old-timers just smiled. They had seen technical questions such as this before." Wofford goes on, "Due to the change to a short format we now have a generation of horses and riders who have never had the chance to miss at speed and learn from it." and I will go back to what I said in my earlier post, "Very few riders today have any real idea of what a horse is capable of." Part of this is fox hunting and eventing used to be very closely tied sports and now because of irrational specialization eventers are not fox hunters. If they were, they would have much more experience being "surprised" at speed and know how to manage unforeseen circumstances at an awkward takeoff. Furthermore, Wofford explains how the increased focus on dressage (when there were 5 phases dressage was 1/5th now 1/3rd) we see too much training emphasis on collection (which I will add has brought us the dominance of Warmbloods that are not as good jumpers as TBs). He says, "Other dressage experts, including Reiner Klimke, have mentioned to me that when we truly and correctly collect our horses, we also subdue their initiative." A loss of the horse's drive or initiative creates risk in a serious jump, which is why I didn't grind Riley down into a more collected stadium jumper because I didn't want to die hunting. Wofford goes on to discuss this new limited initiative in stadium as well. In summary Wofford says, "We now have an event that was designed by humans for humans rather than by humans for horses. Because of this, we have forced riders to cross the line between discipline and domination." I agree. Eventing has gone from men's hockey to women's figure skating, and that is not a criticism of today's women who have come up through sports under Title 9 that caused high schools and colleges to offer equal opportunity in sports to both boys and girls. We now have wound women who are "jocks" capable of playing the old game of check-em-into-the-boards eventing. But do they want to? I believe we arrived here because the old timers, the military trained riders like my teacher and my generation who learned directly from them got old and stopped competing. That void was filled by women riders who were not jocks, did not fox hunt but instead came from the Morris school. I don't mean to offend but old and changing gender roles in equestrian sport have had an impact. But now we are more or less back to a place where we were in the 60's and 70's with all riders regardless of gender. So, do we want to go back to tradition or do we want to stick with an anomaly that has lasted about 35 years? Rotational falls are a killer but you can stop them before they start if you can jump at speed and you know how to make a safe approach. in a NYT article on the dangers of eventing Mick Costello, an event rider who builds cross-country courses wrote, “You have people who didn’t grow up fox hunting or going on wild rides the way we did, they (riders) haven’t been used to tumbling falls. They get a thrill out of going fast, and a lot of them aren’t ready.” Eventing can go back to its roots and be more like hockey, or it can continue down the road to figure skating. To go back to tradition, the sport must become smaller because the riders will come in smaller numbers and be tougher. Polo, for example is the second most deadly sport per capita of all after Formula One car racing and its numbers have not changed since the 1930s. It's a small sport because is scares riders. Does Eventing want to be like polo or like Hunter Jumpers? For me that is the question. I will have my 70th birthday in not too long. When I drop something on the floor, I have to make a plan how to pick it up. I hurt. I cannot tell you how many broken bones I have, or how many horses I have owned, or how many times I took out the trash. My life has been my life and I have done it one day at a time. Physically painful as it can be, I don't think I'd have changed much about it except maybe paid a little more for better horses at times.
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Post by jimmy on May 20, 2016 14:41:42 GMT
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Post by horseguy on May 20, 2016 15:16:08 GMT
This is very correct. It agrees with what I have been saying and Wofford too. TOO MUCH COLLECTION. As Mick Costello said in the NYT piece, they are "not ready" because they have not flown across terrain as the previous generation had done fox hunting. They are too technical, too precise. This is what I meant by "the hockey jocks" vs. the "figure skaters". The sport can't have it both ways. As Woffford said, "We have a sport designed for humans by humans, and we need a sport designed by humans for horses" (and riders who can ride those horses effectively not technically. Then the author says, " ... some trainers don’t know what a ‘galloping’ fence is". I would say most today. We read "Watch Phillip or Toddy as they ride ... They will support that bit in the horse’s mouth if they have to make it happen." That is called Commitment. Todays trainers don't teach settle-commit, that's how you gallop to a jump. You settle out far enough to go hard at the jump. It's like aiming a gun and pulling the trigger. That's how you hunt hard in unknown territory, and it's how you go safely to a dangerous jump. I think the author's feelings about tables is statistical. There may be something to it. But if you know how to go to a table they are no more dangerous than any other jump. This picture is an old guy on a young horse teaching the horse how to go hard at a table. There is no evidence of collection. The horse was flying and the jump was more than needed. It was safe, not too technical. When horses get used to this kind of jumping they don't get hung up on jumps and it doesn't matter much what kind.
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