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Post by horseguy on Sept 24, 2015 16:59:57 GMT
Where are you in your riding skill level? When I learned to ride my instructor spoke of four levels of skill, Beginner, Intermediate, Master, and Expert riders. I think it is helpful for students to know their riding level. The first thing to remember in this four part scale is that it is not like school where you are in 1st, 2d, 3rd grade, etc. It is generally sequential but not completely because of the horses a rider rides. For example, in Grand Prix Jumping, it is common to see a new face that sky rockets to the top three in many competitions through a season or two. Then the rider disappears. The reason often is that that rider may have been expert enough to win a Grand Prix on the horse they had that took them to that top level. However, being a very physically demanding sport, many horses after their early seasons at Grand Prix level come up lame or have other problems that cause them to withdraw from a top level of competition. This is the one horse expert. And then you see Beezie Madden, McLain Ward and others who show up and win Grand Prix competitions year after year on many different horses. These are true expert riders.
In my instructor's definitions, a Beginner is a passenger. On a safe well trained mount this rider can get from point A to point B with muddled commands owing much to the horse's ability to sort out the noise the rider creates with their meaningless body movements and balance shifts from the rider's intention. Next the Intermediate rider can direct a horse. This means the rider can communicate longer series of commands to accomplish more outcomes usually by means of acquired skill and the ability not to create confusion from unnecessary signals from their hands, legs and body. By far, now and in the past, the majority of riders fall into the first two categories or levels of rider. The third level, Master rider, I learned was a rider who could get everything out of a horse that God put into it. Here begins the clouding of that level as a constant in any given rider due to the fact that it is sometimes very easy to get all that is in a horse out only because there is not much in there to begin with. We therefore must be a master rider of a wide range of horses before the Master designation really sticks to a rider. Lastly there is the Expert rider. This rider can get more out of a horse than God gave it in ability. Again, the innate ability of the horse figures highly into the determination of the rider's status. An open minded horse can grow beyond it's potential. For example, a four beat canter can be schooled into a three beat canter, IF the horse is willing to learn. A rider who can take a horse beyond its ability is the true expert.
I encourage young and beginning riders to reflect on these skill levels because if they keep a perspective of where they are, it is easier to move forward and become a better rider. Knowing exactly where you are as a rider allows for a more definitive course of steps to the next level. A good question is always, "What is holding me back today from being a better rider?" This question brings up specifics of a rider's obstacles going forward. Is it physical fitness, concentration &distractions , multitasking ability or just not knowing? If the answer is not knowing, then you need an instructor, or a better instructor. Books, DVDs, clinics, internet searches and all the rest might help, but nothing helps a rider identify the obstacles to their growth as a rider as much as an instructor watching you ride.
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Jen
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Post by Jen on Sept 25, 2015 11:48:57 GMT
Nice definitions. According to them, I am somewhere between a beginner and intermediate rider, cautiously edging on intermediate-dom. What holds me back from being a better rider - and I really DO want to be that - is first, time constraints. Working full time, and then some, gets in the way - especially working in a stressful environment such as I do. Secondly, there is the issue of finding a suitable trainer/instructor in this area. I have no aspirations to do any type of showing, jumping, hunting, etc. I just want to be an effective, better rider. It's just that. Finally, there is a lack of confidence in my abilities. I really DO know I CAN. It's a matter of believing that consistently. It is a struggle - and this is one area where a trainer would, hopefully, be beneficial. So...back to work! Thanks for the forum!
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Post by horseguy on Sept 26, 2015 13:15:57 GMT
Jen, I think now it is difficult to find an instructor who does not have the "pet" mentality where the rider is taught to work around an issue instead of working through a problem with a horse. You wrote, "there is the issue of finding a suitable trainer/instructor in this area. I have no aspirations to do any type of showing, jumping, hunting". I believe what you might be saying is that today if a rider is not riding with a competition instructor, then they are riding with a "pet" instructor, and what you want is an instructor who will treat you like a competition student, in that you will work through issues with a horse not around them, but you do not want to compete.
You have hit on an interesting and subtle point regarding the state of US riding instruction. Today there is a line between pleasure riding and competition riding, or working around vs. working through horse issues, or horse is a pet vs. horse has a job (i.e. competition, hunting, etc.). It's become either/or, and you want both, a pleasure riding instructor AND an instructor who will help you work through issues not around them. Do I have it right?
The amazing thing from the perspective of an old guy like me is that in the 1950's and 60's you would have found just what you are looking for because every instructor would have been one to help you work through issues because horses had not yet become pets back then. Horses were also not so specialized then, like pleasure vs. competition as they are today. People used to trail ride polo horses, pull logs out of the woods with fox hunting horses and so on.
me on a 17 H hunt horse Riley
So now it seems that riders have to make a choice between the two specialized types of instructors and horses too. If you don't want to compete, you only can get an instructor that will teach you how to avoid issues, and you don't seem to want that. Which brings me to the point of the great quote from the "Horse Whisperer" movie (Jimmy told me who really said it and I forgot) "I don't help people with horse problems. I help horses with people problems." You want to be a better more effective rider and someone to help you overcome the stress you bring to riding from you life, not to sweep it under the rug and avoid. Is this correct?
If my take on your post is correct, you need an old school guy/gal instructor (pre-pet mentality) or, I think, a European instructor. I say this because the Europeans I have met are far less interested in the new "pet" idea of horses. In my experience it seems Americans are far deeper into the horses-are-pets model.
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Jen
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Post by Jen on Sept 26, 2015 15:53:01 GMT
Yes, you've pretty much nailed it. I have bad habits that keep cropping up in my riding, and while I can try to not do them or try to correct myself as I go, it's difficult at times. Old (BAD) habits die hard. It would be great to have someone who can set me straight while riding - I was in touch with a woman close to my home who was recommended to me...during the course of an introductory phone call, she dissed my choice of veterinary service and was less than complimentary about some other professionals that I use for horse care. Not why I called her, however her bias steered me away from her. I wanted to know what she could offer - she wasn't serving it up. I hope I don't bring my work stress to the barn, but I know there are days when it's difficult to leave work at work. And yes, one of my really annoying practices, at times, is to avoid the potential boogie man in the thicket, not deal with or avoid what might be scary. Goes back to that confidence issue. You're probably thinking it's a wonder I ride ever at all, LOL, but I DO and for the most part, rides are uneventful. More later, gotta run. Driving to Philadelphia Intl Airport this afternoon.. All prayers are welcome!!
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Post by horseguy on Sept 30, 2015 14:39:40 GMT
Jen, what's your plan? We all have bad habits. Some come from injuries that cause us to compensate with weird body quirks. Some are from riding horses that are more than we can handle. Some are from poor instruction or from not enough instruction. And some come from our imagination, from worry, fear and mental distortions of what is really going on when we ride. The list goes on.
Lately I have been selling or leasing hunt horses for the upcoming season. That has brought me in touch with a lot of riders coming to try horses. I have very well trained hunt horses, the kind that will take you on your first hunt and bring you home safely. Still, I had one woman come from Maryland to try one and she freaked out, really. It was a drama. It was apparent that she was nervous getting on a horse she had never ridden, even though before coming she told a long tale about how she trained her own hunt horses and other stories of her great equestrian accomplishments. I tend to discount that sort of info, but I failed to see these stories were a major league over compensation for her anxiety. She arrived in a luxury care wearing spurs and dressed to the "nines" (I always tell people to look for a horse in a Ford or Chevy, even if you have to rent one, if you want to get a good deal).
We tacked up a horse and as she went to the mounting block I mentioned that she would not need the spurs, my horses are well trained. I think "unleashed" is not too strong a word for her reaction to my comment. She unleashed a tirade about her riding skill and her impeccable use of spurs. I replied, "Just saying". What followed was a very sad situation of a panic attack and awkward cover up. She had, it seemed, tried to get beyond her fear and could not. Nothing actually happened. The horse went well. I was bored actually during her ride, but at one point as she was walking the horse, "out of the blue" she jumped off and went into a rant about how the horse was dangerous. After I got past my first "What?" reaction, like I was woken up suddenly from a sound sleep, I tried to talk to her. It was useless. She was letting out what must have been anxiety that began building when she got in her car to come see the horse. I stood there silently and let her vent until she ran out of energy to complain, accuse, deride and more.
She had ridden a horse I used for beginner lessons with children and acted as if I had put her on a bronco. As an instructor I have learned that the rider's experience is real to them, even if it is not what is really happening by any objective measure. I saw a woman walk and trot a calm horse, and she experienced an out of control dangerous horse. For those of your know know my horses, it was Beau she rode, and he was on his best behavior. This woman, who I was told rode since childhood and hunted for decades, somehow had lost her grip on reality and rode with a fear level that she hid pretty well until she could not.
Over my years of teaching I have encountered several riders like this woman. They may have been good riders in their past, but I suspect something happened along the way that completely undermined their confidence. Their recollection of the days when they felt confident remains as a kind of mythical standard they feel as still real, but in any given moment their past confident experience of riding can evaporate and plunge them into terror. No horse, no instructor, nothing can overcome their panic, which as in this case has no external trigger. Their deep fear just surfaces and conquers the moment.
Jen, I tell this story as a reference point. You are not like this woman, I think. She needs to quit riding, in my view. The question is what elements of her struggle do you experience? Your write, "... one of my really annoying practices, at times, is to avoid the potential boogie man in the thicket, not deal with or avoid what might be scary". Is that it? We all do that sometimes. Where are you in your fear/anxiety/avoidance range? And how objectively real or imagined do you feel your emotions are when you ride?
Again, we all feel these things at times. Horses are big and potentially dangerous. They can hurt us by accident or by being difficult. Some fear of horses is not stupid or crazy. Fearlessness around horses is.
I think this may be a universal question, how real are my fears? I few years ago I had a horse named Magnum that I kept around for over a year and I was scared to get on him every time. He could dump me at will because he was smart enough to spin me to the right, which put my left leg out as the balance against the centrifugal force the spin created and I could manage the spin with my left leg. But then he'd stop quick and spin to the left, which put my right leg in the position of balancing against the force of the spin and I'd go off because my right leg is weak from injuries and could not maintain my seat in the left spin. Magnum had learned my weakness and used it against me. At first I thought I might have a paranoid delusion (like the woman) that he had figured me out so well, so I kept him to see what was real. I wrapped my right leg with ace bandages to support the right leg muscles, and he spun harder until the leg gave out. I wasn't paranoid. Magnum was my reality check. I had met my match. I was no longer 20 years old.
So what's real for you? What can you do comfortably and safely on a horse? It's a question for all of us as the years of riding pile up, our bodies age and our life responsibilities grow. Here I told the story of the woman with the Halflinger she bought for her daughter. The mother wanted me to ride that auction horse in a field full of old farm equipment. I pictured myself being pitched into a disc harrow, so I passed. We have to be real or we can be injured. Finding the line between real and imagined fear with horses can be very difficult.
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Jen
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Post by Jen on Oct 7, 2015 16:21:30 GMT
HG - just wanted to write a quick post to let you know I appreciate your post above and to let you know that I am going to reply, in earnest, when I can come up for air. Not to make excuses, I've been working 10 hour days, mentally exhausted at the day's end. My only plan right now is to escape this with my sanity intact. My horse is enjoying a, hopefully, short vacation while I toil away.... Thanks!! Hope to get back in the groove in short order. (smiley face just for kicks)
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Post by rideanotherday on Nov 19, 2015 14:29:24 GMT
Defining rider capability OHHHHHHH is that a topic!!!
Rideforever and I used to work as trail guides for a dude string (she got me my job there). And we only had 3 designations. Beginner, intermediate and advanced. Beginners could count the number of rides, intermediate the number of horses and advanced riders couldn't remember either of those numbers anymore. Anytime I've gone to a dude string, I'll classify myself as an confident intermediate rider. I don't want to get put on their problem pony. I'm paying to ride, not getting paid to ride. We usually got the matchups pretty well. I hated people who thought they were cowboys. We had an appaloosa gelding that you couldn't blow up with a pipe bomb. Slab-sided, hammer headed, pig eyed, ugly, but the only horse you couldn't steer out of line if you didn't really know what you were doing. He kept those "cowboys" out of trouble.
Ohhhhhh the stories.
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Post by horseguy on Nov 19, 2015 16:45:16 GMT
advanced riders couldn't remember either of those numbers anymore. A real horse trainer cannot remember the number of broken bones in their body. And I do the same thing when I end up somewhere and people want to go riding. I tell the stable I am not a very good rider. Then I can enjoy the ride. I learned that the hard way. I got angry at the manager of Claremont stable in NYC where you could get a horse to ride in Central Park (stable now closed and made into condos, I think). He said polo players couldn't ride. The stable is two blocks from the Park and he gave me a real bronco bolter spinner after I said I could ride anything he had. After two blocks of pavement riding bouncing off a taxi cab or two, we got to the Park. It all worked out. When we returned I told him he owned me for training. Never brag to a hack stable person who is going to assign you a horse.
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Post by horseguy on Nov 20, 2015 17:05:22 GMT
I had a thought this morning about how riders do not move up levels under the current English method of training. There are many reasons. One is the quality and diversity of horses to be ridden at lesson barns. My sense is today a lesson barn seeks to have basically one type of horse, dead quiet (it's easier to make money with an unchanging dead quiet string of lesson horses). I hear regularly that there are also "new horses" at today's lesson barns that tend to be on the untrained side, and the better students and sometimes not so good riders ride these. So, it seems there are dead quiet and then not yet dead quiet horses.
A student cannot learn to ride well unless they ride good, well trained horses. It helps a lot if they are all well trained but have different characteristics. Examples would be lazy, forward, bold, low confidence, sensitive, unresponsive to aids, western, dressage, hunt horses and so on. In other words, a range of horses with different characteristics depending on their former training and ability. It also helps to have some calm green horses for the more advanced students. We never had all these types at once at the farm, but I tried to make sure that we cycled through different types of horses with varied training and a diverse range of skills. I think, as a result, we made some pretty good riders there.
Students who came to the farm were typically from Hunter/Jumper barns. These were riders who knew how to ride one type of horse, the types that picked up a canter, for example, not from the rider's seat but from a crop or, oddly to me to see, from leg then lifting their butt from the saddle. This was, I think, because George Morris edited out most of the dressage cues for the canter. I had a woman come like this who said my best lesson horse, Piero for those who rode there, wouldn't canter. I told her she had to sit deep and move him off her seat. I had refused to give her a crop. Over and over she gave a leg cue as she lifted out of the saddle and Piero was confused. Leg and rising meant commit to a jump to him, but there was no jump to be seen. This is just one example of the uniformity of the H/J technique that I believe came as a result of students riding only poor H/J horses.
Many here know my pet peeve about how the USA Combined Training Team has slipped from the top three to the bottom of the top ten over the past several Olympics. We seem to not have the riders, and I believe this is largely because so many riders get stuck at advanced beginner or early intermediate level riding. There are many reasons, but I think the main one is the horses students ride in their early learning years. Added to this, I see many "rich kids" getting a horse too early and then they are stuck with that one type horse for the entire early stage of learning. These one horse owning students get more stuck at a level, I think, than the kids without their own horses who just ride the limited range of school horses.
If we are going to produce solid beginners, confident intermediates, deeply competent master riders, and world class expert riders in America, we will have to expose students to a much greater range of horses early in their education. I truly think it is that simple, and few solutions are that simple. Better instructors will help but if the horses aren't available it still won't get fixed.
I will add that I think the second biggest reason we have slipped in the international standings is the process of qualifying for the team has been politicized. America does have many young great riders, but they are not permitted to represent their country often enough, or not at all until some "connected' rider decides to step down. We were more successful during the days when open qualification before major international competitions was the selection method. Before that, the Army simply sent its best riders to Fort Riley and the Team was selected from the current best of the best in a dispassionate military way.
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