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Post by horseguy on May 25, 2016 12:31:08 GMT
I've been doing a lot of thinking about my relationship with horses. Mine has changed since leaving the farm. I miss being with horses every day. The only good thing about being separate from horses is it has helped me see how I relate to them. The first word that comes to mind is direct. I relate directly to horses. I let them know who I am and I work to know who they are. My relationship with horses is not superficial. A woman bought a horse from me and said, "I know you are going to miss him because you are his daddy". I'm not his daddy. That's a stupid thing to say. I'm his trainer, partner, rider and I know him very very well. I know what he does well and poorly. I know when he is lazy, tired, scared, uncomfortable and exhilarated. But mostly I have a relationship where we know each other and that knowing has created mutual respect. It's direct.
Generally I don't do roles or personas. I do me. I think most people do roles with their horses. They do mommy or "I'm the most loving horse owner who ever lived". They do pet owner. I came close to moving my horses to a farm with 6 horses. It had a beautiful indoor, barns, everything is first class. The horses aren't trained and if you ask the owners what the plan is for training them, they don't know. Everyone there is successful, busy, smart and they have horses. They love horses. But the horses push you around if you walk in the pasture with them. If you try to look at their feet or feel their legs, they immediately try to control you. Me being me, I let the horse know who I am. They were surprised at my pushback to their bullying. They are not used to a human being honest with them. I explained to the owners that their horse's behavior was disrespectful and I demonstrated by trying to do some simple things like leading them to the barn. The owner's response was all about how they were busy and how important their lives were.
This is the kind of superficial relationship that I think most people have today with their horses. They buy the best stuff for their horses, admire them from a distance (even when they are right beside them) but never really form an honest relationship with them were the horse knows them and they know the horse. That's what I miss the most, that feeling with a horse of knowing and being known. I miss the smell of the barn in the morning too, and some other stuff, but it's the daily knowing that I wonder if I can do without for the rest of my life.
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Post by horseguy on May 25, 2016 17:16:11 GMT
I have had difficulty finding a barn around here that I am comfortable with. South central PA is not a horse area at all. I've lived in several real horse areas but this is just a place with some horses where there is a lot of pretending going on. I'm beginning to see that I may never find a barn where I feel comfortable because people don't want someone around who has direct relationships with horses. The presence of it exposes the pretending. It bursts their bubble and "being mommy" looks stupid. When people are made to feel stupid many get mad or nasty.
I thought about a racing barn. I had an offer from one, but while racing barns don't have the pretending thing happening, they also don't have what I call a direct relationship with the horses. Racehorses to them, and it wasn't always this way, are investments, tools, gambles and machines to be tuned but not a being they way to know honestly and be known by.
I've decided this kind of relationship with horses I have is an affliction. It's like leprosy, people don't want to see it or be around it. I once went to a barn around here to evaluate a horse that was difficult to manage. His feet needed to be trimmed and no farrier would get near him. He was a rescue and "everybody at the barn loved him so much". So, I went there to meet him and as I do, introduce myself to him and try to get to know him. I spent a long two hours trying to teach this horse to allow me to pick up his feet. He was single tied because most farriers I know don't like cross ties. I got his fronts up but not long enough to trim, but it was a start. I figured it would take more than one trip. I got one hind up long enough to see the sole before he launched another serious kick attempt. It was one of those "don't try this at home" demonstrations for the boarders who formed an audience after a while.
The two hour process was to introduce myself. I spent the time demonstrating that I was not going to hurt him, that I am not a thereat. I let him know who I was. He let me know who he was, a nasty SOB. So then I had to demonstrate how a nice kind human deals with SOBs. I put limits on his aggressive over reactions to my reasonable requests. I showed him I had some skills to counter his dominance. Long story short, I found a slight hill near the barn and I backed him down it on a lead rope. That pissed him off. When he had enough of it, he rocked back on his hind legs and struck at me with both his fores. I got out of the way to the side and put a boot in his gut. After three boots, he stopped striking. I did some more control exercises and he seemed to understanding the kind of mutual knowing relationship I was trying to form. I took him back to the place I had worked with his legs and feet for two hours and began picking up his feet. The fores went well but as I slowly, confidently and respectfully slid my hand down his butt toward his hocks to pick up the hind foot I got a glimpse of before, he let lose with one heck of a kick, which like the others missed me.
Well, the crowd of boarders let me know what they thought of my training. Their loved rescued darling was abused and mistreated. I told them to trim his feet he'd have to be sedated.
This is what I mean by people today not having direct and honest relationships with their horses. This story also shows what the dishonest relationships produce. It's all pretend. I can't seem to do the pretending at all. I think my affliction started when I was a boy with my training from an Army rider. I suspect that going into battle with your horse, you'd best have a direct and honest relationship if you wanted to return in one piece. Now that kind of relationship is not working so well for me. I can't find a barn.
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Post by rideanotherday on May 25, 2016 18:37:24 GMT
Try being a western rider around here. I'm not that far south of you. I can't mention the use of spurs. For me, the use of spurs gives me the ability to be precise and refined with leg cues. For riders around here "if you have to use spurs, the horse isn't broke and you aren't a rider". Um....precision and refinement. Let me show you what that means.
I have had a hard time with boarding barns as well. The social aspect (with people, not horses) has always been a sticking point for me. I don't care if I have someone to talk to. It's nice...but not necessary to my relationship with horses.
Someone took a jacket off near my horse..he jerked and they apologized. I said "do it again". He'll get over it. Bubble wrap doesn't work around horses.
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Post by horseguy on May 25, 2016 19:03:17 GMT
Try being a western rider around here. I'm not that far south of you. I can't mention the use of spurs. For me, the use of spurs gives me the ability to be precise and refined with leg cues. For riders around here "if you have to use spurs, the horse isn't broke and you aren't a rider". Um....precision and refinement. Let me show you what that means. I have had a hard time with boarding barns as well. The social aspect (with people, not horses) has always been a sticking point for me. I don't care if I have someone to talk to. It's nice...but not necessary to my relationship with horses. Someone took a jacket off near my horse..he jerked and they apologized. I said "do it again". He'll get over it. Bubble wrap doesn't work around horses.
I don't need people to talk to either at a barn, but I sure as heck don't need their opinion of how I deal with horses. The spurs and the jacket things are part of the pretending to have a relationship with a horse. They want to be sensitive, not desensitizing, and they have no idea of the correct of spurs. For them spurs are a bigger gas pedal and a bit is brakes. They generally have no interest in learning, it ruins their fantasies.
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Post by rideforever on May 26, 2016 13:57:38 GMT
Unfortunately, where you find people and their horses, you will find their opinions. I always joke that in a room with 10 horse people you will have 15 different opinions on how to get something done.
Horses have become a luxury item. People with disposable income are joining the riding ranks. The horse industry is a huge business. You can with make money off of those folks, or grumble about them.
Me, I like money. I have learned how to talk new horse people into maintaining control/discipline while still having the kind of relationship that is satisfying to them.
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Post by rideanotherday on May 26, 2016 14:06:02 GMT
I have read this excerpt a few things...and it got me thinking...
"The two hour process was to introduce myself. I spent the time demonstrating that I was not going to hurt him, that I am not a thereat. I let him know who I was. He let me know who he was, a nasty SOB. So then I had to demonstrate how a nice kind human deals with SOBs. I put limits on his aggressive over reactions to my reasonable requests. I showed him I had some skills to counter his dominance. Long story short, I found a slight hill near the barn and I backed him down it on a lead rope. That pissed him off. When he had enough of it, he rocked back on his hind legs and struck at me with both his fores. I got out of the way to the side and put a boot in his gut. After three boots, he stopped striking. I did some more control exercises and he seemed to understanding the kind of mutual knowing relationship I was trying to form. I took him back to the place I had worked with his legs and feet for two hours and began picking up his feet. The fores went well but as I slowly, confidently and respectfully slid my hand down his butt toward his hocks to pick up the hind foot I got a glimpse of before, he let lose with one heck of a kick, which like the others missed me.
Well, the crowd of boarders let me know what they thought of my training. Their loved rescued darling was abused and mistreated. I told them to trim his feet he'd have to be sedated. "
You spent time "demonstrating that you weren't going to hurt him" and that you weren't a threat, and then proceeded to hurt him. Kicking a horse in the belly absolutely does hurt and you meant it to. Why did you let yourself get pulled into this? You KNEW what kind of people they were, and the type of relationship they have, or do not have with their horses. You KNEW this horse was going to be a dink. You only taught him enough that he learned a few things about humans, and none of it was good.
You remind me a lot of some car mechanics I have met. Super knowledgeable about cars, engines etc, but not really good with people. There's a certain amount of "social lubrication" that helps situations like this, such as explaining what the horse is doing and WHY you are responding the way you are. If you knew going into this situation that the horse is a "rescue", you had to know that anything that resembled force would not be looked upon well, no matter how poorly the horse behaved.
I wasn't there. I didn't see it happen and you did. I'm pretty practical about horses and have few illusions about what they are. I can promise you, that you would not be welcome to my barn if I saw you do that to a horse. Sure, you can go ahead and tell me that they do worse to each other with kicks. Absolutely they do. Horses have the upper hand when it comes to shear physical strength. But humans have brains and the ability to use tools. With the years of experience you have, I have to wonder why you chose that method to handle him. Clearly that horse was more than ready to be on the muscle and fight with you. It takes 2 to fight.
Now, I can't say with any certainty what I would have done in your situation. I know that kicking him in the belly wouldn't have made the list of what I would have done.
I write this knowing you aren't really going to like it. As much as I like having a place to discuss horsemanship, if you want me to go, I will understand.
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Post by horseguy on May 26, 2016 16:18:14 GMT
I'm good with a certain kind of person.
How much could a few kicks from an old guy have hurt him really? The horse tried to kick me maybe 30 times most of his kicks were with full force and complete extension. They were not threats. How come we live in a horse world where the old trainer gets no sympathy and the spoiled horse trying to injure him gets nothing but sympathy? Why isn't that correction seen as an opportunity for learning? He got two hours of easy and rejected it. Then he got relatively light feedback on his exceedingly dangerous behavior. I never expect, "Thank you for risking your health and well being for the horse" but I'm "the bad guy" never ceases top amaze me. There was one person there who got it, the owner who called me and who had fed the horse for years without being able to use him, sent him to a natural horsemanship trainer and more. She gave him away a few weeks later. It scared her to see what he was capable of when corrected. She thought she might accidently do something to provoke him and she'd end up in a hospital. She was unable to maintain her illusions about the horse but the audience maintained that he was a sweetie.
One of the women there was wearing a T Shirt that said, "Horses Are God's Way of Making It Up To Women For Creating Men" or something like that. Sympathetic crowd.  |
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Post by rideanotherday on May 26, 2016 17:07:23 GMT
I'm good with a certain kind of person.
How much could a few kicks from an old guy have hurt him really? The horse tried to kick me maybe 30 times most of his kicks were with full force and complete extension. They were not threats. How come we live in a horse world where the old trainer gets no sympathy and the spoiled horse trying to injure him gets nothing but sympathy? Why isn't that correction seen as an opportunity for learning? He got two hours of easy and rejected it. Then he got relatively light feedback on his exceedingly dangerous behavior. I never expect, "Thank you for risking your health and well being for the horse" but I'm "the bad guy" never ceases top amaze me. There was one person there who got it, the owner who called me and who had fed the horse for years without being able to use him, sent him to a natural horsemanship trainer and more. She gave him away a few weeks later. It scared her to see what he was capable of when corrected. She thought she might accidently do something to provoke him and she'd end up in a hospital. She was unable to maintain her illusions about the horse but the audience maintained that he was a sweetie.
One of the women there was wearing a T Shirt that said, "Horses Are God's Way of Making It Up To Women For Creating Men" or something like that. Sympathetic crowd. As my dad used to tell me quite frequently, sympathy is somewhere between shit and syphilis in the dictionary. The only sympathy I have for the horse comes from being put into a situation that there was little chance for him to succeed. Being spoiled by them and then asked to behave like a citizen by you. He had no chance to win and it was people who made him like that. I know that I don't have the level of horsemanship to handle horses like that. I also know at the point where I think about getting into a physical altercation with a horse is the point I have run out of horsemanship and should just hand the lead rope back and apologize to the horse and the owners and wish them both the best. I'm not going to judge physical damage done to the horse done by your boot. You as the human should have the brains, tools and resources to handle the situation without escalation. If you don't, it's not the horse's fault. I know if I see certain things on t-shirts, I avoid them...sounds like you knew you should have. |
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Post by jimmy on May 26, 2016 17:27:33 GMT
Years ago I worked for a trainer out of Texas. He was a cutting horse trainer, but would ride anything. Or rather, would have me ride anything.
There were some cold back colts that were pretty broncky to get on. He didn't like to have to longe a horse first or gyp them around or anything.
So what you would do was cheek them by the headstall, and boot them in the belly, right in the solor plexis, as hard as you could about three times, then get on. I didn't like doing it. But it was effective. By the third boot they grunted, and you knew you could get on.
I have used that only once or twice more since them.
The situation HG was in is a loose loose for the trainer. Most cases the horse is doing what has always worked for him. As soon as you try to shut that down for the first time, a horse like that can get really nasty, just before he gets good. But most of the time, the mind set of the owner, which created the problems to begin with, wants the horse fixed so it won't hurt them, but want to dictate the means in which you might try.
I go back to thinking about shoeing experiences. You're trying to nail and the horse is jerking you around, and you pull a nail through your finger, or tear your hand up in all kinds of ways.. You get your blood all over his foot and your tools.
Everytime, the owner cries,"oh my! is he bleeding?!" You say, no maam, that's my blood. Then you get, oh thank goodness, I thought it was the horse's! Your blood is evidently dispensable! LOL
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Post by horseguy on May 26, 2016 17:46:32 GMT
"You as the human should have the brains, tools and resources to handle the situation without escalation. If you don't, it's not the horse's fault."
I never said it was the horse's fault. It's the fault of the mindset of the audience and everyone like them. I never escalated the situation either, I just put up a "stop sign".
This is what I meant at the beginning of this topic. It's a process of letting a horse know you and getting to know the horse in a direct and honest way. That's what took place. If the owner would have committed to the cost of training, that horse and I would have gotten to know each other better. One thing a horse gets to know about me is he's not going to hurt me. Some have. The way he was kicking reminded me of a horse that kicked me in the upper body and shattered a bunch of my ribs and collapsed a lung. That's uncomfortable and ruins your income.
The owner of this horse sent him to a natural horsemanship trainer for two months and you couldn't even pick up his feet to clean them after that "training". There was a reason they called me. I'd say the former trainer did not have an honest and direct relationship with the horse after two months, but I had a good start on one after two hours. Too bad she spent her training budget on the wrong guy.
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Post by rideanotherday on May 26, 2016 17:51:52 GMT
When we know better, we should do better.
The owner and people at the barn clearly didn't know better.
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Post by horseguy on May 27, 2016 14:05:59 GMT
We have gone from a time when people truly needed horses to accomplish everything for victory in battle, to getting to the store. Ranchers, State Troopers, teamsters, the list goes on, people needed horses. I think it was need that formed the basis of their real and direct relationships with horses. Once need was gone and enjoyment became the basis of the relationship, then the basis changed to whatever need the horse owner has.
There is a trend now of wealthy families setting their daughters up in the horse business. The buy their child a horse farm, fancy business cards, embroidered jackets with the farm name, all the trapping of success to look credible. These millennial young people need affirmation. I recent Forbes magazine article explained why these millennial don't get promoted at work. Two of the reasons mentioned are that they think they are better trained that they are, and that they need so much affirmation (probably from getting soccer trophies when they lost a game) that their bosses think they are clingy. I have observed the new generation of "equestrian professionals" and they uniformly do think they are better trained that they are. And they are clingy in that they want people like me, with decades in the horse business, to affirm their professional status by engaging in analysis of horses that I find so based in illusion that I can't say anything. It's like talking to someone about their imaginary friend. Sorry, I can't see him.
I was with such a young "professional" recently who was riding a well trained horse. She defined several elements of the horse's behavior as faults. Clearly each of these "faults" were complaints by the horse about her poor and insensitive riding. I tried with as much tact as I could muster to explain that she was a very distracting rider for a horse. Her hands made all kinds of "noise" that the young horse was trying to make sense of. Her legs had the subtlety of a 12 lb. sledge hammer. Her seat was quick to get ahead of the horse's motion. Each time I tried to explain that it was not about the horse, she cut me off. So, I stopped.
Her needs dictated the level of directness and honesty in her relationship with the horse she was riding. She needed to be "the authority" and that prevented a deeper relationship. Similarly, the horse owners who self describe as "mommy" to their horse need to be the nurturer, caregiver, source of all good, to the point that they cannot directly relate to their horse as it truly is, a horse. These superficial relationships do one thing. They fill an emotional need in the horse owner to the exclusion of basic reality. But back in the day when the horse had to get the job done, the reality of performance or nonperformance of the work dominated the relationship and that was objectively real, either the job got done or it didn't.
I have been trying to come up with a clinic idea that would show people how superficial their relationships with horses have become (I know, it would not be a very popular clinic theme) so people could develop deeper, more real and direct relationships with their horse. It would be kind of the opposite of those "Trust Technique" clinics where people can lay on the ground with horses (that I think are drugged) and let their imaginations go as to what was happening. When I ran an equine therapy program in a locked mental health facility for boys for several years, I developed some reality awareness exercises with horses and those disturbed boys. I used to go to auctions and buy the most screwed up horses I could find and bring the back to the facility barn. There we'd get to know them and let them get to know us. It was kind of a "scared straight" reality training thing. These were violent boys and the horses taught them to manage their anger and actions. It got pretty real at times. These boys needed to feel powerful but their bully skills didn't work on aggressive horses. They had to learn new, deeper, more direct skills. I'm not sure how to translate that to a commercial clinic venture, but I think it is needed in the horse world these days.
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Post by rideanotherday on May 27, 2016 20:19:57 GMT
The idea of teaching people a direct and honest relationship with their horse is a good one.
Your approach to people would make it difficult for many to deal with. You said yourself that you get along with a certain type of person. That is not the person who needs this type of "relationship therapy" with their horse.
I hope you can find a way to present tgat will benefit many people.
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Post by horseguy on May 27, 2016 21:21:03 GMT
The idea of teaching people a direct and honest relationship with their horse is a good one. Your approach to people would make it difficult for many to deal with.
Actually, my authentically direct and honest approach to horses and people might be the clearest expression of the "horseness" the clinic would explore. Horses have no hidden agenda. What you see is what you get. Connecting convoluted "humanness" with simple "horseness" in a direct way is the goal.
One of my exercises I did with the locked up boys was to buy a screwed up dangerous horse at an auction, bring it to the mental health facility's barn and put it in a box stall. Then I'd have kids go into the stall with me and teach them how to get the horse moving around us (flight) as we stood in the center of the stall, so the horse wouldn't kick or bite us. This real time, real life somewhat dangerous situation cause the boys to learn about horseness very quickly. They learned to watch for the threshold between fight and flight. Most of them had no fight/flight threshold in themselves, only fight, which is how the got locked up. Monitoring that threshold is one of many elements, as I am sure you know, of a direct and honest relationship with a horse. Demonstrating this and other elements of human/horse consciousness, done in real interactions would be the core of the clinic process. |
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