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Post by jimmy on Sept 27, 2015 14:07:55 GMT
Barbara said, "To produce a rant, ask me how I feel about people who lunge their horse off the bit- but lunging is really off topic here!"
So what is wrong with lunging a horse with a bit?
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barbarafox
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Riding Instructor for a long time
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Post by barbarafox on Sept 27, 2015 18:12:27 GMT
I'm flattered that my statement would start a thread. And not to keep picking on you about your spelling because I truly do hate it when people are so petty on my blog. (one time I used the word irregardless and was completely chastised for it. Another time I used principal instead of principle- something I still screw up regularly) Lunge has 2 spellings- lunge and longe. Lunging or longeing. Another word for lounge is sprawl. And then of course it can be the place that serves drinks in a hotel. I hope you'll forgive me for pointing this out, but my spelling/grammar obsession would not allow me to have peace.
My opinion of lunging with a bit is not at all popular and goes against the methods of the USDF as well as USPC but it is my opinion. With all of the concern for developing the horse's mouth...all the regard for "good hands"...the desire to develop the horse's confidence in his handler through connection...why would I attach a 150 pound (mind you this is an arbitrary weight- not mine!) stationary person via a 30 foot line to the delicate mouth of a 1000 pound animal?
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Post by jimmy on Sept 27, 2015 19:41:26 GMT
Well that's embarrassing. I fixed the spelling.
Truth is, I don't do much lunging, longing, lungeing, etc. I do however engage in vigorous lounging!
Seriously, I don't do it much. Done wrong, especially in side reins, I think it can make a horse lean on the bit.
But there are many reasons it helpful too. I don't think it is necessarily harmful.
But I am interested in in-hand work, in the more classical work. There, a light connection and elevated carriage can be developed. But you are walking along with the horse, in straight lines, and the the goal is not to fix their head, especially in a down position in endless circles.
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Post by horseguy on Sept 28, 2015 14:25:02 GMT
With all of the concern for developing the horse's mouth...all the regard for "good hands"...the desire to develop the horse's confidence in his handler through connection...why would I attach a 150 pound (mind you this is an arbitrary weight- not mine!) stationary person via a 30 foot line to the delicate mouth of a 1000 pound animal?
I agree completely. All the rigs people have come up with to "put a horse on the bit" while lunging/longing,/lungeing (I always like Mark Twain's take on correct spelling, he said, "I never had much respect for a man who couldn't spell a word more than one way.") are contrary to common sense and the basic principles of horsemanship. As Barbara says, how can we teach a horse how to do the other half of good hands if we do not provide good hands from which the horse can learn to accept the bit? It makes no sense at all.
On a separate sub topic, lunging is misused in so many ways. Perhaps the greatest lunging myth is to use it to "take the edge off a horse's energy before riding". The only thing lunging a horse before mounting does is teach a horse not to accept a rider in the saddle before it is lunged. Every once in a while we see a fox hunt rider unload their horse and take it off into a corn field to lunge it before the hunt. Very odd, I think. I imagine, when watching such things, seeing a regiment of 600 cavalrymen lunging their horses before a battle. That would be something to see. 
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Post by jimmy on Sept 28, 2015 17:09:46 GMT
As to taking the edge off by lunging, it can turn into a pattern the horse relies on.
I have been around a lot of rough stock horse breakers/tamers. Done it myself. If you're going to take an edge off, its called getting them a little bit tired. Get a little air out. This may be a life saver for you at the beginning. You are getting the horse ready to ride.
But I have seen touchy, clutchy colts that got into the pattern that getting turned loose in a round pen and sent around until they stop the bucking is just what they think they are supposed to do.
A fellow says, well, he bucks every time, so I got to keep lunging him first. And the colt thinks, this is what I am used to doing. So he bucks every time. The round pen, picking up the whip, etc, can be triggers that the horse learns behavior by association. People, places and things. Whereas if you stopped taking him to the round pen, he wouldn't have the thought in his head, and you could probably just get on.
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Post by horseguy on Sept 29, 2015 22:33:50 GMT
Lunging is an important function. Every horse, I believe, should be taught how to lunge as a 2 year old if only so later in life they can be lunged for rehab of an injury, for identifying lameness and other specific purposes. My first regular paying horse training job was at a place where I lunged 2 year old horses for 20 minutes each for up to 6 hours a day. It was a grueling job at a huge breeding/training facility. I am glad I did it because I learned how to start lots of different young ones using a round pen. I became skilled with a lunge line, a lunge whip and with using my voice and body position in free lunging. I also learned that not all the horses temperaments lent themselves to lunging as a foundation technique in early training. It simply bores the death out of some and it is perfect for others. The place I worked was like a factory in ways, so every horse got the same amount of lunging.
I was young then and had a lot to learn. Before then I never had a horse truly charge me. I have not had many since try that either, but the first time was pretty scary. By the time that 2 year old came at me I had gained some pretty good lunge whip skills, especially using the popper noise. After a couple bull fight like passes at me I figured out I had to crack that popper in front of that horse's nose if he turned to look at me. It all worked out. I learned about voice and how some young ones prefer voice communication and connection. Mostly though I got to watch hundreds of horses in all the gaits, and to observe their reach, suspension and precision, or not. "You can observe a lot just by watching." Yogi Berra
As time went on I did less and less lunging as part of early training. I think it was a style thing. I just felt that me as a trainer did my best work from the saddle.
It was after that time Pat Parelli came out with his Natural Horsemanship stuff and lunging became all the rage. Once again I was out of step with trends, having had my fill of lunging. I credit him with all the lunging before riding so many riders do these days. I have never lunged a horse before riding to take the edge off him. I have lunged before riding to see if the horse was sound. Lunging is something every trainer should know how to do even if you do not use it much.
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barbarafox
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Riding Instructor for a long time
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Post by barbarafox on Oct 10, 2015 1:28:58 GMT
Pony Club kids at about d3 and up are required to lunge in one form or another. It's where I became most adverse to lunging off of a bit- stick a kid at the end of a 30 for (or less ) line with one end run through the snaffle and over the head and all sorts of abuse occurs both unintentional and intentional, plus these learner kids lunge on very small circles. Lunging horses too much is one of the biggest causes of shoulder lameness- some horses just do not carry themselves well enough on circle after circle. All that said I am a believer of lunging for basic training with young horses. It must be the British Horse Society part of my back ground, so I have lunged horses since well before Parelli. Personally I would not lunge a 2 year old- I prefer to wait until there is a bit more maturity in bones and joints.
I find value in natural horsemanship (using the term in the general sense not the Parelli sense) but I think as we progress we all tend to select parts of methods that we value ( Santini's big gripe against people who used a little Caprilli and a little something else). My preference for round pen work is a method that keeps the horse's mind active without running them around the pen (can't do the John Lyons thing). My young horses learn absolutely not to buck in any kind of ground work (but they also learn to walk to turn out next to me and on a long line. ) I've never understood the logic behind teaching them to buck with the saddle on. Teaching them not to buck during ground work doesn't always translate to not bucking under saddle- there are just too many situations that can cause a young horse to response that way if his tendency is to buck.
My most memorable charging on the lunge line incident had to do with a Welsh Pony that was brought to me after it dumped it's little rider resulting in a broken color bone. Pony Charged me on the lunge line. I told the owners to get rid of it and invest in something for their child that was trained.
So here is a lunging question- what is the plan behind the lunging class with AQHA?
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barbarafox
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Riding Instructor for a long time
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Post by barbarafox on Oct 10, 2015 1:44:44 GMT
Oh Hey! Look at what I just finished doing in my profile picture!
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Post by jimmy on Oct 19, 2015 15:04:55 GMT
"I've never understood the logic behind teaching them to buck with the saddle on."
If you are referring to turning a horse loose the first saddling, and not caring whether they buck or not, is not necessarily teaching them to buck.
There are many ways to prepare your horse to be saddled, and cinched up. We really don't want them bucking, but sometimes with many horses, bucking is just a way to work out how to deal with the new feeling, which sometimes doesn't feel to good to a horse.
Like you said, teaching them not to buck in the ground work does not always translate to bucking when you ride.
So that is part of turning them loose, and moving them around, whether they buck or not, is part of making them a little safer to get on.
There are some horses I wished I had never turned loose, and I wished I had prepared better. Some otherwise gentle horses turned inside out violently, and when fear is added into that, when their own bucking scares them, there can be an association with the saddle. Then it was more work to be able to get on them.
But sooner or later, letting them go through all their gears before your first ride is not a bad idea.
But keeping your horse on this side of trouble, and teaching them to relax before they get tipped over the edge is not a bad idea either.
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Post by horseguy on Oct 22, 2015 13:36:56 GMT
I think the myth of "the logic behind teaching them to buck with the saddle on" comes from having young guys on a horse farm or ranch. When you put a bunch of young spirited horses in the same place as a bunch of cowboys or would-be cowboys, there's going to be some "fun", which means a demonstration of post adolescent manhood in the form of guys being tossed around on the back of a bucking horse. In my 20's I worked at such a place and there was plenty of fun like that and it was more or less explained away as desensitizing the young horses in training to the saddle (and why not add a rider?).
The steps for "breaking" a young horse to the saddle that I have used for many years starts with laying your body across the horses back in a box stall. If the horse jumps around when it feels you weight, you simply slide off and repeat until the horse understands nothing bad will happen. After laying across the back, we swing a leg over and lay along the spine with arms wrapped around the neck. Again, if the horse bucks or jumps around, you just slide off. Eventually a horse permits you to sit up straight on their back and then you touch your legs to his barrel and move around a little while holding the mane. It is good to have someone lead you around a circle in the stall at this point. Depending on the sturdiness of the horse and weight of the trainer, we would start this process as young as 6 months or as late as 2 years.
After the stall process of "backing" described above, we would pony the young horse from a totally calm older horse. This is done on a lead rope wrapped around the horn of a western saddle two or three times, being sure to keep the robe short (under 24 inches) so the young horse's head is pulled close to the lead horse. The short rope is important because the physical connection to the lead horse is calming for the young one and most importantly it prevents the young horse from rearing up and getting a leg over the neck of the lead horse. It is quite disconcerting to be sitting in a saddle looking at a 2 year old horse's leg laying over the neck of the horse you are riding. You tend to get a feeling that the young one will rear up to remove his leg and kick you in the head in the process of extracting himself. When the young horse ponys well, we will put a small adult or gutsy child rider on the horse in training that is being ponied. This is when you can go on a trail ride and show the young horse a good time so they enjoy their training.
Now comes the saddle. Many people are of the belief that you must place a saddle on a horse, trained or untrained, and tighten the girth in a series of steps from lightly tightened, to medium tight, to full tightness. I believe this method is very flawed because all it does is teach the horse that they will not have a saddle girth tightened to a useful firmness immediately when the situation requires it. How many times have I watched a rider by their trailer as a fox hunt begins tightening their girth in two or three stages to accommodate their horse as the Staff and hounds walk off leaving them behind. These kind horse owners then feel rushed, tighten the girth too quickly to suit their mount and the horse jumps away from the trailer, breaks a rope and takes off. Their day hunting might be over before it began. I have see it at polo games as well. Well meaning grooms teach the polo horses to be comfortable by not having them cinched up good and ready for work as they stand ready at the trainer. The player comes rushing off the field with a somewhat lame horse in desperate need of another horse. He jumps on one tied to the trailer and takes off to get back in the game, only to be forced to hop off his horse and tighten the girth. I suppose that if you are not never in a position to need a horse ready to ride, it would not matter if he knows to accept the girth immediately without steps of tightening, but be careful if you have a guest over to ride or a friend helping you saddle up who does not know of your horse's learned accommodation to the girth. Another person might just tighten the girth full up only to be shocked at a dangerous display of complaint from the horse.
So, we teach the young horses from the get-go to have a saddle placed on their back followed by their girth tightened to a useful level of firmness. We do this by tying them securely, placing an old or broken saddle on their back, not gently but as you normally would, and tightening the girth in a steady manner so as not to shock the horse but also not to accommodate any minor discomfort the horse might feel. At this point a horse could complain about the feel of the tight girth by jumping around or even bucking. We do not intend for the horse to buck, but many do. The ones who show persistent sensitivity and complaint about the tightened girth are usually lunged with a saddle and tight girth until they accept it. This is simple desensitization. I think once or maybe twice in my career I have had a horse that absolutely refused to accept a firmly tightened girth. In those cases I put the horse in a small paddock, saddled the horse up with a old damaged saddle, tightened the girth and let them go. I recall one named Molly who worked up quite a sweat and finally discovered that a saddle was part of her life now. Panting and out of breath she finally stood quietly with her saddle and I got on her and rode her around. She had been a young TB brood mare with her great bloodlines but would not race. She made a pretty good polo horse.
The bucking is not something we want, unless we are young guys high on testosterone. It is just part of the process of desensitization for a percentage of young horses in training.
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Post by jimmy on Oct 22, 2015 13:52:10 GMT
That description is not that different from how things are done in my world, with a couple of differences.
Some guys will get on bareback, and others simply start with the saddle.
The biggest difference when Ray Hunt came on the scene, is the idea of allowing the horse to move to get comfortable, and not hobble him and sack him out that way, and especially not tie him up to saddle him.
The skilled hand can move with the horse when the horse moves. The lesson of not getting away is a separate lesson than the first saddling lesson. Tied up, the horse can get scared, and then more scared of the confinement, which scares him more.
So he can think about things one at a time. The skill is in getting on with things, without tipping the horse over the edge of the fear, allowing him time to get comfortable, and if things start going bad, you just start over. After a few saddlings, the horse will allow himself to be saddled easily with just the lead rope drapped over your arm, which is how you started the whole process. Tying up to saddle comes pretty easy after that.
Ray would just turn those saddled horses loose and let them do what they need to do. But some guys might keep them on the lead and try to help them a little and talk them out of it,, it they can.
Tom Dorrance and Ray had some differences. Later I learned that Tom would sometimes say watching Ray, that he wouldn't have let those horses get in that troubled spot to begin with.
The point is, that allowing a horse to buck with the saddle until he works it out, is not "teaching him to buck". But it is also not completely necessary.
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Post by horseguy on Oct 22, 2015 15:12:08 GMT
The biggest difference when Ray Hunt came on the scene, is the idea of allowing the horse to move to get comfortable, and not hobble him and sack him out that way, and especially not tie him up to saddle him... The lesson of not getting away is a separate lesson than the first saddling lesson. Tied up, the horse can get scared, and then more scared of the confinement, which scares him more. So he can think about things one at a time... Tying up to saddle comes pretty easy after that. Later I learned that Tom would sometimes say watching Ray, that he wouldn't have let those horses get in that troubled spot to begin with.
I completely agree that the standing while tied is a completely different lesson. Trying to teach a horse to stand tied and to learn how to be saddled are two separate processes. From what you write it sounds like your process has the saddling come first and the standing second.
For me the stand command is one of the most important. Here in the east you might think that a horse getting lose is not as dangerous as out west but it might be more dangerous. We have traffic and if a horse gets lose and runs across a busy road, of which we have plenty, there is big trouble. We also have the wide open spaces issue. A fox hunt will hunt in a place like Blue Marsh Lake here in PA, a 6,500 acre watershed DOD property north of Philadelphia. Having a horse break lose from a trailer there is a big pain in the butt. It's rough terrain, wooded and no neighbors to help you find a lost horse.
So we tie almost from day one. We use the verbal command "stand" to teach the horse what we want. When a horse is very young we will put a halter on them and tie them fast in a location that if they fight and go down they will not be hurt. We will tie them to a trailer (always at the wheels so they cannot slide under) that can make scary creaky noises in the wind. If they fight, we let them fight the rope until they get it, always making sure they cannot be hurt. I carry a sharp knife to cut the rope if needed. My point is, by the time we tie them to saddle them, they tie. Some will jerk back when we tighten the girth but when they feel the poll pressure from the halter, they know immediately that fighting is pointless and they relax. We also yell the familiar, "STAND!" command if they jerk. By the time we saddle them they know how to tie and they know leadership.
I forgot to mention earlier that we use a pony pad when we pony the young horses with a rider in between the bareback riding and the saddling.
There is a girth of sorts on these that they feel when it is around their belly and they get a chance to get used to it. If you buy one of these, be sure not to get one that does not have a synthetic fleece under side and a nylon girth strap. Both these are very slippery and can spin around to the horse's belly if you are not careful. The old style ones have a wool under side and a cotton girth that hold better.
In summary, when we tie and saddle we are confident the young horse has minimal stand and tie issues or none at all. I'd say maybe one out or twenty five or more horses becomes a problem, and if necessary we cut the rope and start over as you describe, with the horse on a lead held by someone who can stay with the horse.
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Post by rideforever on Nov 18, 2015 21:23:43 GMT
A couple of thoughts occur to me:
1- Most people are lunging wrong. By that I mean they are only lunging to 'work a horse down', which has already been discussed. All you have at the end of that is a really fit horse who can run all day and still knows nothing. He is not athletic, he does not understand one thing other than going around in a never ending circle. I think it results in a dull horse who is not interested in the person in the middle of the circle except as an annoyance that must be tolerated.
2-Lunging done correctly can result in a more athletic, responsive partner; while teaching them important elements/skills that can be used under saddle.
I LOVE groundwork. There is so much you can do to help a horse learn his role in the partnership, and how to be athletic. That being said, at a certain point in training, if I get off the horse in the middle of a ride, they will regret whatever made me get off!
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Post by horseguy on Nov 19, 2015 0:00:40 GMT
Maybe I am old fashion, but ground work and lunging is for young horses at the beginning of their useful career. The only real use I have for lunging once a horse is trained to ride is to rehab them after an injury. Riding horses, I feel need to get to a point that they can be schooled from the saddle by 2 or 3 years old. I don't do complicated things when they are that young, but I do get them balanced and moving forward well, so that when their body and mind is ready we can go right to it in training.
The business of lunging a horse to take the energy edge off them is bizarre. Like you said, all it does is get them fit enough to resist better if you don't have a plan.
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Lunging
Nov 19, 2015 1:17:15 GMT
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Post by rideforever on Nov 19, 2015 1:17:15 GMT
I will revisit groundwork if a horse gets pushy, usually if someone else has been handling them. A handler who is consistent doesn't run into that problem very often
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