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unity
Jul 20, 2016 20:56:44 GMT
Post by horseguy on Jul 20, 2016 20:56:44 GMT
I was thinking more along the lines of finding that place where you are neither ahead of the horse or behind, but right there, doing the right thing at the right moment. When the horse and you the same idea at the same time, or your influence on the horse's idea happens in an instant, on demand. I cannot profess to such perfection. I have felt it at times, and it's worth striving for. I am always looking for it. But it is true that some horses have so many barriers built in by poor handling, that the horse's default is defense, or some sort of learned struggle as a normal way of operating. I think this is the result of people generally operating at square 2 or 3 right off the bat. They go right by square one, and are not even aware there is a zero. A clarification. When I used the word "ahead" somewhere above, I did not intend to say ahead of the horse but rather ahead of the movement that the rider and horse initiate together in square zero, which I am calling the place of intention before action.
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unity
Jul 20, 2016 21:52:36 GMT
Post by horseguy on Jul 20, 2016 21:52:36 GMT
To me, every ride is a conversation. Asking, receiving, giving. Tuning in to the horse, and as the horse learns to tune into me, each ride comes closer to unity. Some horses are easier to do that with. But I find it is much easier when I have the right mindset. Maybe it's because I've studied martial arts, but I try to get on the horse and be present, without expectations, and accept what I find. That doesn't mean I'm not going to adjust what I get from the horse, but I try to flow with it, accept it and nudge it the right direction. Horses see to respond well to a "zen" approach to horsemanship. They very much live in the now. I think we are getting somewhere. I also think words continue to be a challenge. I agree that every ride is a conversation. I am saying that the conversation has levels. In the different levels there is more or less unity all the way up to a level where the conversation is nearly non-existent compared to the simple, slower conversations that happen in the lowest physical levels of unified movement. You write, "...flow with it, accept it and nudge it the right direction". What does this mean? How does this actually take place? You say it is easier with the "right mindset". How would you describe that mindset? I will explain my answers to the above questions but I will add some context first. In the Myers Briggs, which is a system of description of human being's types or expressions by type, I am and ISTP. For those who are unfamiliar with the Myers Briggs, it sorts humans into sixteen types using four categories with eight variables (two per category). The four categories, with their respective variables, are Introvert/ Extrovert, i Ntuitive/ Sensate, Thinker/ Feeler, Judger./ Perceiver. Just as there are types of horses, some seeking unity and some not, I believe there are different types of riders who experience unity differently according to their type. I think the middle two traits are most meaningful in how we all might individually experience unity before and during movement (square zero and square 1). A Sensate Thinker like me feels it very directly on a physical level and at the same time has a very present clear intellectual understanding of it, assuming I am really there. Whereas, an INFP (first and forth categories the same, second and third opposite) being an i Ntuitive Feeler will have a less physical sensation and a less intellectual experience of the moment of unity before movement. The INFP would experience a heightened intuitive feeling moment. 16 Myers Briggs typesMyers Briggs testGoing to the Myers Briggs in this conversation might seem an "out there" means to get deeper into the understanding of this unity experience but major corporations and the US Army use this system in the analysis of interaction. (I can imagine Jimmy wanting to make fun of all this using Parelli's Horsealities ) Interestingly, something like 80% pf Army officers are ISTJs. My point is that when we get into spaces of "feel" at deeper levels of horsemanship, much of it is affected by what we bring to the moment just as each individual horse brings their individual type set of responses and impulses. Horsemanship is therefore at the higher or highest levels very individualized. I can't tell you you are wrong in describing that square zero pre-movement moment, but I can usually tell if a rider really gets there. Example, all the very good Argentine polo pros seem to live there in unity, and they each seem to use it differently. Likewise, most of the Hunter/Jumper riders I have met couldn't get there with a GPS. Generalizations can often be useless but this one has some valitity in my experience. Back to: You write, "...flow with it, accept it and nudge it the right direction". What does this mean? How does this actually take place? You say it is easier with the "right mindset". How would you describe that mindset? When I experience unity in square zero with a horse what you call "flow" feels physically almost like an enery field connecting us. It feels "deep", That's as best I can describe the flow. The "nudge" and how it takes place, for me, is often like looking and the horse sees the direction through my eyes (I assume that the horse feels my head move, or not). The nudge for me is oddly telepathic. The right mindset, for me, is what people call "in the game". The horse and I are in the game together. So as airy and out there this all might sound, it's real and very very difficult to describe, but I have tried.
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unity
Jul 21, 2016 2:43:00 GMT
via mobile
Post by rideforever on Jul 21, 2016 2:43:00 GMT
The right mindset: a horse that wants to get along not all horses have a natural inclination to be an active partner. I call these horses "broke minded". They are always looking to do their job, to basically read my mind. What they are doing is reading the subtle movements of my body and reacting correctly
Which leads into flow. A horse who is tuned in like that is very easy to ride, and to adjust. I've had horses who take a turn, because I turned my head, stopped because I thought about stopping. Loped off from a standstill because started thinking about cueing for it.
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unity
Jul 21, 2016 14:32:43 GMT
Post by horseguy on Jul 21, 2016 14:32:43 GMT
The right mindset: a horse that wants to get along not all horses have a natural inclination to be an active partner. I call these horses "broke minded". They are always looking to do their job, to basically read my mind. What they are doing is reading the subtle movements of my body and reacting correctly Which leads into flow. A horse who is tuned in like that is very easy to ride, and to adjust. I've had horses who take a turn, because I turned my head, stopped because I thought about stopping. Loped off from a standstill because started thinking about cueing for it. I can completely relate to what you have said. I am interested in what you did not say, which would be anything about your experience of unity beyond the unified horse/rider physical movement. Everything you wrote was about the horse.
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unity
Jul 21, 2016 17:34:07 GMT
via mobile
Post by rideforever on Jul 21, 2016 17:34:07 GMT
To me, every ride is a conversation. Asking, receiving, giving. Tuning in to the horse, and as the horse learns to tune into me, each ride comes closer to unity. Some horses are easier to do that with. But I find it is much easier when I have the right mindset. Maybe it's because I've studied martial arts, but I try to get on the horse and be present, without expectations, and accept what I find. That doesn't mean I'm not going to adjust what I get from the horse, but I try to flow with it, accept it and nudge it the right direction. Horses see to respond well to a "zen" approach to horsemanship. They very much live in the now. Horse guy- you are interested in a further explanation of what I do as a rider? I stay mentally prepared, and physically balanced. No matter what the horse gives to me, I accept it, and use that energy to change it if necessary. I use "shaping" techniques. The horse isn't necessarily wrong, but he interpreted my request incorrectly, so I ask again, maybe a little differently. I do what I can to make sure we as a team don't get into a fight. If I were musically inclined, I'd say the horse is the melody, while I'm keeping time
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unity
Jul 21, 2016 19:48:50 GMT
Post by horseguy on Jul 21, 2016 19:48:50 GMT
I am not as interested right now in what you do as much as what you experience. The melody and keeping time addresses my question. Thank you. I will think about your answer.
Jimmy said he would compare unity with a good bronc ride, in that there is a lack of control but a clear connection. I know that feeling and enjoy it a lot. The idea of keeping time while the horse is the melody seems new to me. I don't know if I have experienced it. In your earlier post you said you could feel the horse feel your direction of vision. I have experienced that and the part about the halt from a thought or whatever goes with a thought of stopping.
My overall purpose here in this topic is to get at the experience of unity beyond the simple unity of movement between horse and rider, which could be called simple synchronization. I think a lot of instructors today believe that synchronization is unity and that you can teach it as a physical skill. I don't believe this. There is more, and the more of it is in consciousness.
For example, the mounted US Cavalry used blindfolded riding to help students achieve this. They had an oval about 1/8 mile around and maybe 16 feet wide, fenced on both inside and out with board or rail fencing. A rider or a small number of riders would be put inside this enclosed track on a horses blindfolded. Other troopers would line the fence and toss stones, yell and otherwise spur he horse onward. There would be jumping rails across the track supported by the rails or the fence boards. The rider would have to feel the horse approaching the jumps, which were made more difficult because the men on the ground would move the rail locations after the rider passed. Next time around, the jump would be in a new location, be at a different height, etc.
I would describe this process as teaching feel or higher level unity by means of experience. I am therefore interested in how people describe unity experiences that are beyond the simpler synchronized movement shared with a horse.
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unity
Jul 21, 2016 20:04:01 GMT
via mobile
Post by rideforever on Jul 21, 2016 20:04:01 GMT
After your description of the military method with blindfolds, etc. you are coming perilously close to describing trust as opposed to unity.
I imagine they are linked. If both parties do not trust, unity is not really possible is it?
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unity
Jul 21, 2016 20:21:09 GMT
Post by horseguy on Jul 21, 2016 20:21:09 GMT
After your description of the military method with blindfolds, etc. you are coming perilously close to describing trust as opposed to unity. I imagine they are linked. If both parties do not trust, unity is not really possible is it? Great observation, the relationship between trust and true unity. I can take your insight and see it in relation to the bronc ride Jimmy brought up. There are horses that buck and "dance" in a way that I trust them. I usually start to laugh from pure enjoyment when riding such a horse. I get a feeling from this kind of bronc that it isn't personal, it's just their response to being ridden, so there is trust on my part, and I think in time the horse gets to a place where they feel the same way, that me riding the is not personal either, so they begin to trust me. Unfortunately, that's when the excitement ends and they become very trainable. There are also horses that are clearly untrustworthy that will buck an twist and you can feel their maliciousness. No trust. No unity. Separateness, even when the rider can synchronize with their physical movement and stay on/with them.
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unity
Jul 22, 2016 13:38:23 GMT
via mobile
Post by rideanotherday on Jul 22, 2016 13:38:23 GMT
Timing is when the rider is able to apply aids appropriately within the movements of the horse to accurately pinpoint the time in which the cues will be most advantageous and effective to achieve desired results.
Synchronicity is when the horse and rider are moving together harmoniously.
Feel (on the horse's part) is when the horse is looking for (anticipating) interaction from the rider and is mentally prepared to offer a response to the slightest interaction from the rider (aka "softness"). Feel (on the rider's part) is offering interaction to the horse and is ready to respond to the horse's interaction immediately (also part of softness).
Unity (for me) has elements of timing, synchronicity, feel and trust on behalf of both horse and rider. I have had the good fortune to ride horses that were looking for unity. It is almost disappointing to ride horses that are not as interested in that level of connection.
That said, there is nothing wrong with having balance, timing and feel, riding in sync with the horse and quiet knowledge that both horse and rider are looking to get along, even if there isn't that "something else" that really makes it special.
When I ride, I look to offer the horse softness and understanding with corrections that will allow the horse to be in a better place when I step down, than he was before I stepped on.
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unity
Jul 22, 2016 22:34:20 GMT
Post by horseguy on Jul 22, 2016 22:34:20 GMT
... there is nothing wrong with having balance, timing and feel, riding in sync with the horse and quiet knowledge that both horse and rider are looking to get along, even if there isn't that "something else" that really makes it special. When I ride, I look to offer the horse softness and understanding with corrections that will allow the horse to be in a better place when I step down, than he was before I stepped on. I agree, nothing wrong with being unified in movement. Sometimes that is a lot. I just think it's important, especially for young riders, to strive for more. I wrote about the athletically exciting young horse I helped find for a good young rider, and when I left the farm how the family moved to a barn where no on there "got" the horse. This topic has me thinking more a but that horse. He would have been a confidence builder if the new instructor had the ability to teach confidence, which like trust is part of higher level unity. The young rider rode the horse well the first time we went to see it. I had to talk her through a few things, but she rode him very well, especially because he was about 3/4 trained. He was sensitive and this young girl, with my help, found the mid point between his sensitivity and her apprehension. I could see he had no malice. He just liked to move, to dance, and he knew where his feet were all the time. I had confidence in her and she knew I wouldn't put her in danger. She was afraid here and there but riding that horse then and later showed her how good she was. I believe it is an instructor's job to not only teach physical skills but also to prepare riders for the higher levels of unity that involve trust and confidence. But today's typical instructors seem to only focus on the physical skills and that leads to students learning only the physical synchronization of movement level of unity. I think this limitation is the result of the cultural phenomena that includes helicopter parents and the losing team receiving trophies. It's pretending. When they got that horse to the new stable the new instructors couldn't use that horse to pretend because he was the real deal and not quite finished. What a loss. I trained a horse named Mosby that was not unlike this young horse. The horse was too good for the owner and they tried to dumb him down. He got frustrated and Mosby started to play dancing games with them. That scared the people at the farm where I found him. When I test drove him the first time it was winter. The indoor had roof leaks, which the seller failed to tell me. There were three of four icy patches in the arena. We found them and this horse handled them perfectly. I had to own him. When we got him home he was a handful. He was used to dancing under a rider until they got scared. He'd twist and go lateral, and he had some impressive moves. When he did them, instead of correcting him I said, give me more. I trusted him immediately thanks to the ice spots. He showed me that he was incredibly confident and I was too. He turned out well and went on to a very good rider who "got" him after she got through the process of having the horse teach her how good a rider she was. That's how student riders learn higher level unity. A horse that is safe and talented, and just a shade past their comfort zone, has to teach them. A big part of being a good instructor is matching talented horses like that with students who can learn from them. I was greatly disappointed that the barn where the young horse and young rider went because no one there could follow thorough and be real about a talented athlete that liked to show off. The difficult part of finding the match was done. But if a teacher doesn't know how to use a horse like that to teach higher level preparation, they can't because they don't know how. What a waste.
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unity
Jul 23, 2016 14:12:21 GMT
Post by jacki on Jul 23, 2016 14:12:21 GMT
As a critical observer, I have seen many moments of higher unified movement between horse and rider, but I've witnessed that true unity I believe you are speaking of only once. There was fairly deep snow on the ground, and my daughter had gone out to the barn for one last ride on a horse she'd been working with for a few months. It was her last chance to ride him, as her lease agreement was up. Her intention was merely to hack around, maybe trot a little, but in that "square zero" moment at the bottom of a hill, she felt the horse's intention to "fly" up that hill as they'd done in the warmer months. She could have cued him otherwise, but she chose instead to "give him the go-ahead". What followed is very hard to describe other than "magical" -- I truly wish I had captured it on video. The horse was unrecognizable, so complete was its transformation. As for my daughter, she seemed to disappear -- they looked like one creature. If you saw a picture of that horse in the air, in perfect form, you would not know there was a rider on his back or that there was deep snow on the ground, truly magnificent to see. As for this discussion, it was a repeatable thing. They did it 4 times. Laura would walk/trot the horse to the bottom of the hill, feel his intention/preparation, cue him OK, then get out of his way, and they were as one each time.
Elements of this unity experience were: HISTORY OF COMMUNICATION between horse and rider, familiarity with cues, movement, etc. TRUST on the part of both horse and rider SHARED INTENTION TRANSFORMATION -- both horse and rider were deeply affected by the experience. 6 months later, I can still picture Laura's face. As for the horse, he "woke up" that day as if from a long sleep. SPEED -- I think speed may be a factor in elevating synchronized movement to the hard-to-describe true "unity".
Questions: Can a more experienced rider achieve this true unity with a horse at slower speeds? Is unity simply what synchronized movement looks like at high speed? How/when/where does the "transformation" happen, where horse and rider are deeply affected? by the experience?
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unity
Jul 26, 2016 12:23:45 GMT
Post by horseguy on Jul 26, 2016 12:23:45 GMT
... The horse was unrecognizable, so complete was its transformation. As for my daughter, she seemed to disappear -- they looked like one creature. If you saw a picture of that horse in the air, in perfect form, you would not know there was a rider on his back or that there was deep snow on the ground, truly magnificent to see. Elements of this unity experience were: HISTORY OF COMMUNICATION between horse and rider, familiarity with cues, movement, etc. TRUST on the part of both horse and rider SHARED INTENTION TRANSFORMATION -- both horse and rider were deeply affected by the experience. 6 months later, I can still picture Laura's face. As for the horse, he "woke up" that day as if from a long sleep. SPEED -- I think speed may be a factor in elevating synchronized movement to the hard-to-describe true "unity".
Questions: Can a more experienced rider achieve this true unity with a horse at slower speeds? Is unity simply what synchronized movement looks like at high speed? How/when/where does the "transformation" happen, where horse and rider are deeply affected? by the experience?
I think transformation into that "one creature" state is it. The Sioux tribe had a word for that creature. It was similar to our word like "train". If a train is coming we do not say, "Hey look a locomotive, some cars and a caboose is coming." We just say, "A train is coming", no parts, one whole. I used to know that Sioux word for the transformed unified horse/rider but I forgot it. So, I went to a Sioux website that offers translations. I sent the question of the word, and they replied that their minimum charge was $60. If you want to know the word and have $60, please share. The question about speed is very relevant. I think most of my understanding of unity comes from 25 years of polo. There isn't time in polo for back and forth. Horse and rider must get to that transformative unity over and over. You play six horses, one each seven minute period or chukker. You play one horse after another with three minutes in between periods until the half. When you switch horses you have to go right back into it with the next horse. They are all different, at least all mine were. The rich guys hire a pro to build them a string of a matched set. Not easy. Yes, after a while of doing higher unity really fast you can slow it down. I was up in Saratoga one time. There were some big name players there. I was in the stands watching a very high level game, eight players, six were Argentines of the highest quality. Those guys use a lot of what amounts to a head fake to get an advantage. They will slow it down to suck another more impatient player into a wrong move. One Argie made like he was going to whack the ball hard from the side line to the right, but he slowed it all down just as his Argie opponent went into a roll back in response to the fake. This was a big roll back, kind of a rearing roll back. Half way through the roll back with the horse's fore hooves high off the ground and committed to a right turn, the opponent stopped the roll back to see what he first guy was going to do. He kept his horse up off the ground, communicating to the guy who faked him out, "I'm going to wait in this twisted rear to see what you are really going to do". The first Argie, seeing his fake started to work but really didn't, then whacked the ball hard to the right after all. The opponent finished the roll back, as first initiated, and the play went back to full speed. I don't know how long that all took. It felt like an eternity. They two players eyeballed each other hard as everything stopped for that moment. You got the feeling they'd done that dance before, and the guy who paused his roll back out faked the first guy with what looked like a total commitment but it wasn't. That kind of riding, fast to stop to fast, is a higher unity outside any concept of speed. If you play a lot of polo, you stop thinking about riding, you think about where the ball will be. I have never paused a roll back, especially one that high, but I know the guy doing it was not thinking about it. He was thinking about where the ball was going to be. To do what he did was pretty incredible, but like I said, I got the feeling he did that sort of thing all the time. I sat there in the stands wearing my dirty game pants and high polo boots, people were looking at me impressed like "he's a polo player". My game was an opening act for the headliner. I sat there thinking I really sucked at polo after watching that moment. Some people can really ride.
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