Drew
New Member
Posts: 6 
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Post by Drew on Oct 28, 2016 0:29:46 GMT
Hi everyone,
I'm one of the lurkers out on the edges gathering in the knowledge posted here but, frankly, have limited familiarity with horses, much less expertise, but learning. And if things keep going, I will need more sound advice and knowledge.
I have a 10-year old daughter, been riding 3-years, (1-year with horseguy), Pony Club D2-close to D3, rides 3x per week (2x lessons and 1x lease). The lesson horses at this facility are at times, limited availability and limited teaching/performance/ability, and soundness occasionally, (there are no Piero's or a string of solid schooling mounts like triple creek horseguy). Most of my experience is with ranch/roping horses...like their attitudes, quietness, and soundness and ease of maintenance, I know that is a generalization.
Here are my priorities considering a younger rider, but a rider with decent fundamentals on a trained mount, overall, looking for a well minded, predictable animal, who is versatile and sound for my daughter but also has the potential to develop, maybe even have the horse training to develop advanced skills when the time comes. Trying to list the "ideal" traits, are there any of these where I can accept less, or should I expect more on some? I'm finding that folks are very proud of finished, versatile geldings going into the 10 year range.
Please provide your input/corrections/insight, I am focused on my daughter and do not want green on green=black and blue,
1) Owner demonstration of all advertised skills, training, and attitude of the horse and trial ride.
2) Temperament: Well minded, quiet, willing, responsive, and de-sensitized to most probable environments, but not dull.
3) Soundness: Good feet, i.e. able to go barefoot if the level of work permitted, versatile, easy keeper, no history of colic, founder, significant long term joint, ligament, tendon injuries that impact soundness.
4) Experience/training: Fundamentally trained, no major gaps or anxieties in the basics, predictable. Gentled and stands quiet and comfortable to tie, cx ties, groom, brush, pick hooves, handle legs/head/croup, wormer, vet, and farrier. Trailer load/unload. W/T/C, leads would be nice. The more finished the better, not green, knows his job but still has potential to advance.
5) Trial/leasing period (~30 days) for compatibility and to conduct a vet pre-purchase exam.
Age: I figure at least 8 for a sure enough finished gelding.
Thank you for your advice.
Drew
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Post by jimmy on Oct 28, 2016 2:15:18 GMT
If the horse you describe actually exist, then be prepared to pay a substantial sum. If you are looking for a horse around ten years old, then he is going to be what he is for the most part. As your daughter progresses, then you would be looking for another horse, rather than thinking you are going to "advance" that one. If he has all those qualities you desire, he is going to be plenty advanced, and by the time your daughter is advanced, that horse will be past an age to really advance him to her new capabilities we hope she eventually will acquire.
As far as a trial/leasing period, 30 days is a lot to ask for. Especially if the horse is coming from a reputable person. The history of the horse should speak for itself. Unless you are willing to sign a you break it you buy it lease. A lot can happen to a horse in thirty days. A lot of things can ruin good training. Meanwhile, the owner risk losing other potential buyers, and risk diminished value. Some people may agree to a lease/purchase. But that is risky for them. A week trial should be plenty of time. A pre purchase exam takes about an hour, and is usually done the day of the sale.
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Post by rideanotherday on Oct 28, 2016 11:38:18 GMT
If the horse you describe actually exist, then be prepared to pay a substantial sum. If you are looking for a horse around ten years old, then he is going to be what he is for the most part. As your daughter progresses, then you would be looking for another horse, rather than thinking you are going to "advance" that one. If he has all those qualities you desire, he is going to be plenty advanced, and by the time your daughter is advanced, that horse will be past an age to really advance him to her new capabilities we hope she eventually will acquire. As far as a trial/leasing period, 30 days is a lot to ask for. Especially if the horse is coming from a reputable person. The history of the horse should speak for itself. Unless you are willing to sign a you break it you buy it lease. A lot can happen to a horse in thirty days. A lot of things can ruin good training. Meanwhile, the owner risk losing other potential buyers, and risk diminished value. Some people may agree to a lease/purchase. But that is risky for them. A week trial should be plenty of time. A pre purchase exam takes about an hour, and is usually done the day of the sale. The best part of this is that you have a list of what you want! Making the list of deal breakers is another one I think can be helpful to prepare you for purchasing a horse. When you go look at a horse, take your trainer with you if you can (be prepared to pay for the time) or find someone else experienced who can come along to evaluate the horse. Often it's easier for someone who isn't invested in finding a horse to see the "warts". If you are in the MD/PA area, I'd be glad to come along! Like Jimmy said, the horse you outline will have a cost. Don't completely rule out mares - some are super! My sister has a dunalino mare who makes a great lesson / kids horse with plenty of ability for more experienced riders. Best of luck! |
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Post by horseguy on Oct 28, 2016 14:23:51 GMT
"be prepared to pay a substantial sum"
That was my first thought too.
Great advice above. I like the suggestion of being open to mares. My feeling is a good mare is better than 90% of geldings, but a good mare can be hard to find. Jimmy's advice on the second horse is very important and true. The reason the lesson string at Triple Creek Farm was so diverse and always changing was to have the necessary range of horses to allow students to progress. Riding is a progression and that progression cannot be found in one horse, or even two. This is why the phrase "forever home" when applied to horses bothers me.
What I can add is what my first instructor always said, "There's something the matter with every horse". You just have to decide if you can live with that "something". I have had colicy horses that were great polo horses. Pampering them was worth it. I have had horses that had feet that couldn't hold a shoe, and let me tell you, that has to be one heck of a horse because that is hard to put up with. I have found that owning a horse is like a trade, I do something extra besides feed and care because I get something extra. I don't think I have ever had a horse that was special that didn't need something special. Piero cribbed, Mocha was an absolute witch several times a year, and so on. Be willing to make a trade to give something in order to get something, or have a wallet full of many thousands of dollars in it when you go looking.
Winter is the best time (accept maybe in California) to buy a horse because it's the off season. So, you are looking at a good time and you may get more of a trial period now and as winter approaches. On that point, have the seller speak with your barn manager to assure the seller that they will oversee the trial period and protect their horse. That can help get or extend a trial length. Prepare you daughter by telling her not to fall in love while looking. Girls do that and they can find themselves in a "must have" state, which is counter productive. Take pictures and video of prospects and post them here by putting them on youtube and posting the link. Many sellers have youtube videos you can see and all you need to do is click on youtube SHARE to get the direct link.
Lastly, my first go - no go evaluation on a prospect is reach. I try to get the seller to send me a side view video of the horse's trot and canter. If I do not see the hind foot falls falling near the foot print of the same side front foot, then the horse is not reaching under itself. If a horse cannot reach, it cannot balance, so I eliminate it. There are reasons a video can show a horse not reaching of a horse than can actually reach because the rider is somehow blocking the horses ability to reach. That is why I ask for a video of the horse trotting and cantering at liberty or not being ridden. I want to see how the horse naturally reaches because that is the beginning point of balance that will allow all the things on my list of athletic requirements. Likewise, I look at the slope of the shoulder to see it the front legs can swing freely. If a horse reaches nicely and has a nice slope of the shoulder, they make it onto my list of prospects. Then I am willing to make that trade, maybe.
Thanks for posting Drew.
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Post by horseguy on Nov 7, 2016 16:47:42 GMT
So how is the search going? |
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Post by horseguy on Nov 29, 2016 20:29:21 GMT
Here is a video of a horse now in craigslist around here. I like his reach and more.
The text:
Traffic safe, dog safe, crosses water, easily negotiates obstacles without a stumble. High man in pasture. Good with other horses. Goes out alone. No kick, no bite, no buck, no cribbing. Good ground manners. Great to lead and work around. Great feet, is bare foot. Lifts them without hesitation. 100% healthy and sound. Pasture kept with another gelding, goats and cattle and gets along fine with them all. Currently fed free choice hay and very little sweet feed. Approx 10 y/o (no papers). 15.1 hh or near 15.2 hh, not stick. Ridden western with snaffle. And bareback with halter and lead ropes by my 5 and 7 y/o in our pasture with close supervision.
Selling because we bought another horse that is better suited for beginners. Handled daily, but we no longer have time for him and it isn't fair to have him stand around and get chubby, as he admittedly has become. Not for a beginner, because he has mostly been a lead line horse for my girls. He can be ridden but will need a refresher. He tends to be a little unsure of strangers, so don't expect to get here and jump right on. Come with plenty of time to spend and get to know this special fella. He loves apples and to have his poll rubbed. Meets us at the gate and follows to the barn.
I emailed and asked about the "a little unsure of strangers, so don't expect to get here and jump right on" part of the post/ad.
The answer:
"I like people to spend some time with him on the ground first. Leading him, longing him, grooming him… just something on the ground first. It helps him and it shows me how they handle horses. I don’t mean that you can expect him to go crazy if you don’t, but it does seem to work the best."
This is, I believe, what Jimmy would call a demand to continue the Munchausen syndrome treatment he's used to. I may go and just hop on.
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Post by rideanotherday on Nov 29, 2016 20:49:13 GMT
Here is a video of a horse now in craigslist around here. I like his reach and more. The text: Traffic safe, dog safe, crosses water, easily negotiates obstacles without a stumble. High man in pasture. Good with other horses. Goes out alone. No kick, no bite, no buck, no cribbing. Good ground manners. Great to lead and work around. Great feet, is bare foot. Lifts them without hesitation. 100% healthy and sound. Pasture kept with another gelding, goats and cattle and gets along fine with them all. Currently fed free choice hay and very little sweet feed. Approx 10 y/o (no papers). 15.1 hh or near 15.2 hh, not stick. Ridden western with snaffle. And bareback with halter and lead ropes by my 5 and 7 y/o in our pasture with close supervision.
Selling because we bought another horse that is better suited for beginners. Handled daily, but we no longer have time for him and it isn't fair to have him stand around and get chubby, as he admittedly has become. Not for a beginner, because he has mostly been a lead line horse for my girls. He can be ridden but will need a refresher. He tends to be a little unsure of strangers, so don't expect to get here and jump right on. Come with plenty of time to spend and get to know this special fella. He loves apples and to have his poll rubbed. Meets us at the gate and follows to the barn. I emailed and asked about the "a little unsure of strangers, so don't expect to get here and jump right on" part of the post/ad.The answer: "I like people to spend some time with him on the ground first. Leading him, longing him, grooming him… just something on the ground first. It helps him and it shows me how they handle horses. I don’t mean that you can expect him to go crazy if you don’t, but it does seem to work the best."This is, I believe, what Jimmy would call a demand to continue the Munchausen syndrome treatment he's used to. I may go and just hop on. <sigh> If you are selling a broke horse that is traffic safe etc...then YES. I absolutely do believe I should be able to see you show me what you think is important and then I should be able to get on and test him out. I do ground work as a "pre flight" check...but seriously. If it's a broke horse, ride it. I admit to having expectations though. |
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Post by horseguy on Nov 29, 2016 21:58:01 GMT
The other thing abut "10 year old" horses on craigslist is most are in their late teens.
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Post by horseguy on Nov 30, 2016 13:46:20 GMT
An interesting thing happened. I sent a letter to the young trainer at my new barn, with whom I intend to train this horse, about the seller's wish that we enable the horse's anxiety by employing the seller's requirement that we "spend some time with him on the ground first. Leading him, longing him, grooming him… just something on the ground first". I explained to this young horse trainer that Jimmy would describe the seller's approach as Munchausen syndrome horse treatment. Unfortunately I sent the email to the seller by mistake, not to the trainer, and she replied, "Munchausen syndrome horse treatment Lols. I shall try not to be offended."
I decided to be point blank truthful with the seller and sent her the following:
K**** is a young professional trainer. I am a semi retired trainer after 45+ years working with horses. We are working together to find and train a winter project.
To clarify, most horse owners project their human feelings onto their horses. One of the most common human ideas is that a horse needs to be lunged before being ridden. By applying this idea to horses, they learn through repetition that they must be lunged before being ridden. Once learned, when they are not lunged they become upset not so much at not being lunged but by having their learned human like pattern broken.
It is through these kinds of human impositions that a horse's "horseness" becomes eroded, and the result is they often begin to exhibit the kind of anxiety you describe in the horse you are selling, i.e. shy and unsure of strangers. I do not know if it was you or a former owner who has permitted the described anxiety to exist in the horse, but I can say from years of experience that the kinds of solutions, i.e. "spend some time with him on the ground first. Leading him, longing him, grooming him… just something on the ground first." typically act to enable the horse's anxiety in the long term while they offer temporary relief in the short term in the form of a shared artificial pattern of behavior like lunging.
An effective horse trainer's work is to remove the horse's artificial human patterns as far as is practical, however well intended, from the daily experience and return the horse to their horseness where they can authentically relax and experience their true confidence. The email you read to K**** was to help teach her to become a more effective trainer.
I am glad you were not offended. I do not believe you have cause because the world of horses over the past 20 to 30 years has shifted away from an authentic focus on the horse's nature to encouraging horse owners to impose human concepts on their horses. Much of this shift has been accomplished under the guise of "Natural" horsemanship, which is neither natural nor horsemanship.
If you sell us this horse, we will do our best to systematically remove the horse's anxiety through a process of discovery with him of what satisfies his nature. We will find him a job that is challenging and that suits him. Instead of trepidation regarding strangers, we will seek to establish in him that a human, known or unknown, represents the required partner in the work he enjoys. Thus, his human encounters will be positive, perhaps even exciting. If we are successful, he will indeed want a rider to just hop on him so they can go to work. This does not mean we will not groom him and do other necessary tasks, it's just that we will not do these things in any sort of intended therapeutic way.
If this approach to training is something you can accept for your horse, we'd like to come see him this Saturday afternoon.
It will be interesting to see what the seller's response will be.
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Post by rideanotherday on Nov 30, 2016 14:23:35 GMT
Well, that was an "oops".
I hope that things work out for you. The explanation you sent is sound and reasonable. I think it should go a long way to help. Having a clear plan is always a good thing.
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Post by horseguy on Nov 30, 2016 18:18:16 GMT
Well, that was an "oops". I hope that things work out for you. The explanation you sent is sound and reasonable. I think it should go a long way to help. Having a clear plan is always a good thing.
Hallelujah! There is hope!!! I received a reply from the seller that began with ...
"No harm done Mr. Wood. It’s nice to chat with someone who has their head screwed on straight."
The email went on to say they hoped we would take him and train him.
I was afraid I'd get the same kind of reception as I got from the rescues. |
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Post by rideanotherday on Nov 30, 2016 19:35:44 GMT
Well, that was an "oops". I hope that things work out for you. The explanation you sent is sound and reasonable. I think it should go a long way to help. Having a clear plan is always a good thing.
Hallelujah! There is hope!!! I received a reply from the seller that began with ...
"No harm done Mr. Wood. It’s nice to chat with someone who has their head screwed on straight."
The email went on to say they hoped we would take him and train him.
I was afraid I'd get the same kind of reception as I got from the rescues. ugh. rescues. "save 'em all" even when it's not in their best interests to save them. no thanks. I'm glad this looks like it will work out! I look forward to watching progress! |
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Post by jimmy on Dec 1, 2016 0:27:32 GMT
"...It’s nice to chat with someone who has their head screwed on straight."
...little does she know! LOL
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Post by horseguy on Dec 6, 2016 18:27:08 GMT
I went to see this horse.
He is an interesting guy. He looks, moves and acts like a Warmblood. He has a very old brand that looks to me to be too big to be a typical American ranch brand. I can't read it but it looks like a European style brand. It is located on his left or nearside hind, which is not uncommon for many Warmbloods. He's small and that might indicate Trakehner.
a Trakener brand - not his picture
His brand is about that big a brand and at that location - winter coat makes reading it a challenge)
He is very well trained and moves beautifully. He is, however, clumsy in difficult footing. I lunged him on a slight side hill in the open when it was raining. He didn't like slipping and sliding around but he managed. Typical arena horse.
If they could only talk. The seller knew little of his background. She said the "myth" he came with was he was brought to Pennsylvania from the south. He had some evidence of being caught on all four legs in wire at some point in his life (white patched of hair all 4 cannon bones) but his movement did not reflect damage and the legs were smooth.
What the seller described as "He tends to be a little unsure of strangers" in my view is that he sizes up strangers and tries to be off-putting toward them in a mild dominance sort of way. It's a second rate kind of intimidation. He tried it on me put my hand firmly over his nose with one hand and I grabbed his ear with the other, and he got it that his job was to listen up. Well trained and pushy would be my summary. You never know what you will find tracing down craigslist ads.
He is overweight and apparently an easy keeper. Working him and getting 100 pounds or more off him would make him look a whole lot better. I didn't ride him because my back hurt in this cold rainy weather and he looked unstable in the greasy footing. I think I will go ride him when the ground if better.
Well trained and pushy would be my summary. You never know what you will find tracing down craigslist ads.
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 6, 2016 20:17:09 GMT
Sometimes ranch horses will be a little stand offish. An ex-boyfriend had one that wanted nothing to do with people, brushing or fussing. Unless it was cold out and you had a blanket for him. Then he was your best friend. Rode awesome, not spooky, worked until you were done...just didn't want much to do with people. I let my then 12 year old daughter and her friends wear him down with brushing and braiding and all of the things that 12 year old girls like to do. I wouldn't say he ever got to like it, but he sure learned how to put up with it.
The pushy stuff can be managed with good horsemanship, but you knew that. Weight will come off with riding. He will probably be much more handy with that 100 lbs gone as well.
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