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Post by horseguy on Dec 7, 2016 14:17:51 GMT
I think this horse is more than standoffish. He's a dominator, a tester. He has had considerable training. When I lunged him he was perfect almost automatic. He changed gaits immediately. Halted and changed direction in an instant with little in the way of cues. He's a pro. I believe his testing and pushiness is the kind of behavior common to dressage horses, the Big Shot syndrome. Most dressage riders own only a handful of horse over a lifetime of riding. These horses become "special" to their owners in unique ways. They become more important than the owner to both parties. This horse has that kind of arrogance... until I grabbed his nose and ear and shook his head, which he found surprising.
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 7, 2016 15:00:57 GMT
I think this horse is more than standoffish. He's a dominator, a tester. He has had considerable training. When I lunged him he was perfect almost automatic. He changed gaits immediately. Halted and changed direction in an instant with little in the way of cues. He's a pro. I believe his testing and pushiness is the kind of behavior common to dressage horses, the Big Shot syndrome. Most dressage riders own only a handful of horse over a lifetime of riding. These horses become "special" to their owners in unique ways. They become more important than the owner to both parties. This horse has that kind of arrogance... until I grabbed his nose and ear and shook his head, which he found surprising. I usually prefer backing them up hard and fast. In the herd, he who moves his feet first loses. Backing up is also submissive. For arrogant horses, putting them in submissive postures and maneuvers is a big shocker for them. Of course, any kind of discipline is usually pretty life altering for them. They get used to having their way. Sometimes they get worse before they get better because they like having things their way.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 7, 2016 15:20:16 GMT
Because I was with the seller and did not wish to upset her, the gentle but firm holding the nose and ear got the message across and I hope almost appeared as a "hug".
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 8, 2016 12:19:21 GMT
Because I was with the seller and did not wish to upset her, the gentle but firm holding the nose and ear got the message across and I hope almost appeared as a "hug". Yeah, corrections in front of the seller almost never go real well unless you can conceal them.
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Post by homeskoolr on Dec 8, 2016 23:50:02 GMT
5) Trial/leasing period (~30 days) for compatibility... Drew that sounds great as a buyer, but I would not feel comfortable as the seller. What happens if my horse gets injured? What happens if you get injured on the horse that is still mine? I even had a potential buyer request permission to haul my horse to a stable they compete at to try him out. Um... No thank you. Risky business to me.
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Post by homeskoolr on Dec 8, 2016 23:58:40 GMT
Here is a video of a horse now in craigslist around here. I like his reach and more. To clarify... This is a great (albeit testing) horse with lots of personality that knows his stuff. And the current owner is an honest, not easily offended, overall wonderful person. I am his owner. Introduction over.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 9, 2016 0:46:07 GMT
Here is a video of a horse now in craigslist around here. I like his reach and more. To clarify... This is a great (albeit testing) horse with lots of personality that knows his stuff. And the current owner is an honest, not easily offended, overall wonderful person. I am his owner. Introduction over. I agree.
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Post by homeskoolr on Dec 9, 2016 0:49:58 GMT
Because I was with the seller and did not wish to upset her, the gentle but firm holding the nose and ear got the message across and I hope almost appeared as a "hug". Wow... you are not such a great hugger then are you? I had to laugh when I read this one. I told you your head was on right. People ought to understand alpha horses can be real jerks to their herd mates. We are not going to hurt a horse by putting them in their place. I wouldn't have liked it if you started whipping him (there is a line where it becomes abuse), but the way you handled him is one of the reasons I felt you were a good match for him. That's why I wanted to see people work with him on the ground in the first place. If you cannot handle them on the ground you have no business on their backs. I know he is dominate and testing. He does not get away with it here, but he tried it with everyone else that came to see him. They all acted surprised even though I was up front about it. This is my first time selling a horse and since I care about him and the potential buyers safety, it has not been easy. You get all kinds. You said "well trained and pushy" at one point and I agree with you. That explains him very nicely. And I am just smart enough to know my hands are not experienced enough to bring the lovable chubby guy along.
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 9, 2016 12:28:27 GMT
Because I was with the seller and did not wish to upset her, the gentle but firm holding the nose and ear got the message across and I hope almost appeared as a "hug". Wow... you are not such a great hugger then are you? I had to laugh when I read this one. I told you your head was on right. People ought to understand alpha horses can be real jerks to their herd mates. We are not going to hurt a horse by putting them in their place. I wouldn't have liked it if you started whipping him (there is a line where it becomes abuse), but the way you handled him is one of the reasons I felt you were a good match for him. That's why I wanted to see people work with him on the ground in the first place. If you cannot handle them on the ground you have no business on their backs. I know he is dominate and testing. He does not get away with it here, but he tried it with everyone else that came to see him. They all acted surprised even though I was up front about it. This is my first time selling a horse and since I care about him and the potential buyers safety, it has not been easy. You get all kinds. You said "well trained and pushy" at one point and I agree with you. That explains him very nicely. And I am just smart enough to know my hands are not experienced enough to bring the lovable chubby guy along. He sounds like a fun guy to work with! I love it when sellers and buyers are in sync! Welcome to the board Homeskoolr
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Post by horseguy on Dec 9, 2016 14:15:45 GMT
I will not go so far as to call him loveable. Horses that have been around the block a few times with humans and decide that their strategy is to intimidate people, for me, are difficult to love. I will work with them with the understanding that some trainer way back in their history taught them to "fight" with humans. The question for me with this type of horse is when and how do they cave in to competent human direction?
I had a Warmblood years ago named Magnum that some here will remember. Some trainer taught him to essentially "fight to the death" over ever little thing. I wasted a year of feed and training on him and then gave up to cut my losses. Part of my abandoning him was I realized the he was not the smartest horse on the farm and maybe he was incapable of experiencing people in any other way that he had when he was younger and in training. Warmbloods are not famous for smarts.
This guy caves in relatively easily on the ground. I did not ride him but his threatening head drop and shake when he transition up was very typical of an intimidating "I'm gonna throw you a buck" horse. I suspect that he will not buck but the threat is "unattractive". Back when I was training polo horses if a horse persisted in that kind of head drop threat, I'd gently swing my mallet up under their chin as they dropped their head. You only have to do that once to a Thoroughbred. There is no room for anything remotely like a dangerous buck, or even a threat of it, in a dangerous sport like polo.
So, for me the question is how long and how much work will it take to convince this self absorbed intimidating tester with great movement to get it that his domination behaviors, however small or empty threat they may be, are completely unacceptable? That's when smarts comes in. Magnum never came close to getting it over the course of a year. That's how dumb or resistant he was.
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Drew
New Member
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Post by Drew on Jan 25, 2017 5:17:15 GMT
Thank you all for the responses and advice, I really appreciate the time, experience, and consideration placed in those words.
I apologize for the delay, I did not intend to be inconsiderate. The family has had some unplanned events (a significant vehicle repair) and other higher priority life planning events that placed the horse search on a back burner and we didn't want to rush with those financial and timeline unknowns. Things are now about where we are confident in searching again.
We had looked at a nice gelding, that had a lot to offer, but his training and the precision with which he needed the aids given to him were beyond what my daughter is currently able to do, i.e. her legs, knees, calves, and heels were not long enough to effectively reach (properly communicate) inputs to the animal. Or so we thought.
We discussed with her instructor and a another instructor at the barn if this could be overcome in time, training, familiarity, etc. Recommendations were to give him another look.
Second ride we went out and the animal acted as if he was really just sore in his back and reluctant to work. After this, owner said that he needed some Bute and he'd be fine. So we passed and looked some more, and that's when the head gasket blew out on my truck, just before Thanksgiving.
Anyway, should be back to check out and catch up on the forum.
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Post by rideanotherday on Jan 25, 2017 12:07:50 GMT
Thank you all for the responses and advice, I really appreciate the time, experience, and consideration placed in those words. I apologize for the delay, I did not intend to be inconsiderate. The family has had some unplanned events (a significant vehicle repair) and other higher priority life planning events that placed the horse search on a back burner and we didn't want to rush with those financial and timeline unknowns. Things are now about where we are confident in searching again. We had looked at a nice gelding, that had a lot to offer, but his training and the precision with which he needed the aids given to him were beyond what my daughter is currently able to do, i.e. her legs, knees, calves, and heels were not long enough to effectively reach (properly communicate) inputs to the animal. Or so we thought. We discussed with her instructor and a another instructor at the barn if this could be overcome in time, training, familiarity, etc. Recommendations were to give him another look. Second ride we went out and the animal acted as if he was really just sore in his back and reluctant to work. After this, owner said that he needed some Bute and he'd be fine. So we passed and looked some more, and that's when the head gasket blew out on my truck, just before Thanksgiving. Anyway, should be back to check out and catch up on the forum. Good idea to pass on a horse that "just needs some bute". Hopefully a pre purchase exam would clear up reasons for his soreness. Welcome back to the board. Vehicle problems are never any fun. Best of luck in your continued search.
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Drew
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by Drew on Jan 28, 2017 23:59:28 GMT
Well, this may be the kind of horse that is worth a trip to look and ride...what do you think?
Thank you, Drew
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Post by horseguy on Jan 29, 2017 3:32:58 GMT
I like the horse. I like how the horse moves. I do not like the rider. She is "perched" throughout the ride, always up, never sitting. Jim Wafford says,"Good riders sit". It would be interesting to see how the horse went with another rider. The horse seems to be holding its head in some tension. I more connected rider with a deeper seat might relax the horse more.
Also, if I went to try the horse I would ask to ride him without the figure eight nose band. They are trendy now but mostly unnecessary and can add to a horse's stress.
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Post by rideanotherday on Jan 30, 2017 12:33:02 GMT
I like the horse. I like how the horse moves. I do not like the rider. She is "perched" throughout the ride, always up, never sitting. Jim Wafford says,"Good riders sit". It would be interesting to see how the horse went with another rider. The horse seems to be holding its head in some tension. I more connected rider with a deeper seat might relax the horse more. Also, if I went to try the horse I would ask to ride him without the figure eight nose band. They are trendy now but mostly unnecessary and can add to a horse's stress. The rider has tension through her arms / shoulders. She's very stiff and not fluid. The horse went well despite her. Fortunately, you aren't buying the rider. I think the horse would be worth a look. For all the rider's faults, the horse wen't around without a lot of fuss.
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