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Post by horseguy on Mar 20, 2017 16:48:17 GMT
I very recently had a mother of a student tell me what I believe every serious competent riding instructor wishes to hear. She said, and I paraphrase, that "When we were first looking for a riding instructor we thought riding a horse was getting on and steering with the reins. We had no idea that it meant a whole new and vast work of experience in athleticism and relationship with a horse." Wow, somebody gets it. Thank you.
This is in contrast in the same week with a discussion with a barn owner about how riding lessons are paid for. I was told by this barn owner that the current trend is for students to pay a flat fee by the month, to which I replied that that system was confusing. The barn owner's replay to my confusion was that it's easy to understand if you look at a calendar, some months have 4 weeks and 4 lessons, some have 5. (do I look that stupid?) To this I replied that the confusion is not around how many weeks and lesson is a given month but rather in value of the lesson and thus value of the instruction. With equal condescension I explained that if an instructor received $200 a month, some lesson would be worth $50 and in other months $40. It is my traditional view that a professional instructor's cost per lesson is a message and a standard of quality.
Each time I relocated my business to a new area, I surveyed the local lesson costs and put a value on my lessons at $5 above the highest cost per lesson of any local instructor. My message, along with my standard, was "I charge more because you get more" which is generally the case in most businesses. The idea of having a lesson cost $40 on month and $50 the next completely undermines the presented value of the instruction offered. I said to this young instructor that she had managed to reduce the profession of riding instruction to the level of a gym membership. (how big are the lockers?)
OK, I always complain about the degrading of American riding, the Olympic losses , etc. This seems to be the ultimate in causes if this is indeed the new general practice. If we turn riding instruction into some utility like gas or electric with a monthly bill, what does that say? All instruction is the same? If we reduce the teacher/student relationship to a "membership" what's the learning motivation? It is at times like this I think about how statistically I have 16 more years to endure on this planet. Is that like a membership where I can pay but not go to the gym?
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Post by rideanotherday on Mar 21, 2017 11:29:04 GMT
In this case, I don't feel like the other instructor is trying to devalue the lessons. I think someone doesn't like accounting. Flat monthly fees are easier to manage from a dollars and cents standpoint when it comes to paying taxes.
So what if they are happy getting $50 / lesson some months and $40 the next? What other people do may or may not have bearing on what you do.
Figure out what gives you the sense that what you do gives you a sense of accomplishment, and still feel like you are getting paid what you are worth. Comparisons like the one you just gave are only going to make you unhappy. What an "up and coming instructor" does or gets paid really shouldn't have much bearing on what you have to offer or get paid.
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Post by jacki on Mar 21, 2017 11:50:43 GMT
I used to pay quarterly (3 months at a time) for dance lessons - always 13 weeks in a quarter . The price included one lesson per week - same day, same time. Extra lessons were pay-as-you-go and also doubled as makeup lessons. Private lessons were also available on a limited basis and individualized for the student's skill level. For the instructor, the bookkeeping was simplified and she was paid timely - didn't have to worry about no-shows, last minute cancellations, etc. This worked well for several reasons: 1) this was the instructor's full-time job; 2) she had 200+ students with classes of 15 - 30+ students per class; 3) the lesson structure was rigid - classes were the same time each week. This is very different from riding instruction parameters, and I think implementation would be much more difficult on a "smaller" scale.
Jacki
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Post by horseguy on Mar 21, 2017 11:51:39 GMT
In this case, I don't feel like the other instructor is trying to devalue the lessons. I think someone doesn't like accounting. Flat monthly fees are easier to manage from a dollars and cents standpoint when it comes to paying taxes. So what if they are happy getting $50 / lesson some months and $40 the next? What other people do may or may not have bearing on what you do. Figure out what gives you the sense that what you do gives you a sense of accomplishment, and still feel like you are getting paid what you are worth. Comparisons like the one you just gave are only going to make you unhappy. What an "up and coming instructor" does or gets paid really shouldn't have much bearing on what you have to offer or get paid. fun·gi·ble ˈfənjəbəl
adjective Law
adjective: fungible
(of goods contracted for without an individual specimen being specified) able to replace or be replaced by another identical item; mutually interchangeable.Interesting point, convenience. I notice the point I made about reducing professional instruction to the level of a gym membership is not addressed. This makes a lesson fungible and that is absolutely not the case. Each instructor and each lesson is, if professional, unique and designed for the rider(s). You are probably correct about the convenience, but I do not think it justifies lowering the standard of lessons to becoming a fungible commodity.
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Post by rideanotherday on Mar 21, 2017 13:10:10 GMT
In this case, I don't feel like the other instructor is trying to devalue the lessons. I think someone doesn't like accounting. Flat monthly fees are easier to manage from a dollars and cents standpoint when it comes to paying taxes. So what if they are happy getting $50 / lesson some months and $40 the next? What other people do may or may not have bearing on what you do. Figure out what gives you the sense that what you do gives you a sense of accomplishment, and still feel like you are getting paid what you are worth. Comparisons like the one you just gave are only going to make you unhappy. What an "up and coming instructor" does or gets paid really shouldn't have much bearing on what you have to offer or get paid. fun·gi·ble ˈfənjəbəl
adjective Law
adjective: fungible
(of goods contracted for without an individual specimen being specified) able to replace or be replaced by another identical item; mutually interchangeable.Interesting point, convenience. I notice the point I made about reducing professional instruction to the level of a gym membership is not addressed. This makes a lesson fungible and that is absolutely not the case. Each instructor and each lesson is, if professional, unique and designed for the rider(s). You are probably correct about the convenience, but I do not think it justifies lowering the standard of lessons to becoming a fungible commodity. I have taken martial arts lessons and paid for them in "blocks", the fees were due quarterly. My gym fees are paid monthly. If you look at the lessons over a 12 month time frame, I think you'll find that the price per lesson works out to about $46/lesson. I don't think that charging monthly in anyway reduces the level or value of a lesson. I would accept a monthly fee if the trainer met my needs. I evaluate "worth" and "value" with less weight on the payment structure and more weight given to my goals, the availability of lessons when I want them and capabilities of the trainer. The next thing I factor into lessons is barn amenities. I Since my gym membership includes the use of a hot tub, you'll find it difficult to convince me that there's less value in the structure and usage of a gym membership. I think you are selling your experience short if you want to call your lesson fungible in comparison to an "up and coming" trainer. But that's your business, not mine. Different trainers are not "fungible". My friend can give me a lesson in cutting, but she doesn't know anything about cows. I can go to a cutting horse trainer and get a lesson and get much more out of that lesson because that's what they do. You are trying to compare apples and oranges, at least from the information presented.
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Post by horseguy on Mar 21, 2017 14:52:37 GMT
This issue might be a generational thing. When I learned to ride the instructor had one technical point he taught at the beginning. Examples might be use of a specific type of rein (i.e. leading vs. direct), aligning the horse's spine for a transition, lateral movement, etc. This took about 15 to 20 minutes. Then we rode out over terrain in a "follow me" ride. We were expected to apply the lesson from the technical portion of the lesson in the follow me part, but also we were expected to problem solve in the field or terrain riding with the instructor's help when necessary. In this way each lesson was both part of the curriculum and also very unique for that day's conditions. This might sound overly dramatic, but each lesson was comparable to a oil painting, where today with almost all lessons being on the flat in an arena, I would compare lessons to prints of a painting, and prints are pretty much fungible.
As a traditionalist, I see so many small steps away from quality. Example, my lessons began the minute a student arrived at the barn. How a rider went through a gate when they brought a horse in from the paddock was part of their instruction (always swing the gate out away from you and the horse, not in toward you incase the horse spooks and pulls you forward into the metal gate). Every detail of safety and relationship with the was mentioned when appropriate. Today I see increasingly that the lesson begins when the student(s) is mounted. As a result riders do not mount safely. I watch many not hold the reins when mounting. Heaven help those riders if they ever get on a horse that takes off the moment the rider's seat hits the saddle, and there are many like this.
Safe effective riding is in the details. Conveying useful information in instruction is an art specific to the individual rider on a given day. I have always felt that the amount paid reflects the quality of the lessons as it does in so many things. So, to confuse the value is not good.
As for lesson packages, I did them. Students bought a 10 lesson package and receive a discount. I stopped when a woman insisted that she had one more lesson left after she had 10 (I gave her 11). Plus, keeping track was a nightmare.
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Post by rideanotherday on Mar 21, 2017 15:28:48 GMT
This issue might be a generational thing. When I learned to ride the instructor had one technical point he taught at the beginning. Examples might be use of a specific type of rein (i.e. leading vs. direct), aligning the horse's spine for a transition, lateral movement, etc. This took about 15 to 20 minutes. Then we rode out over terrain in a "follow me" ride. We were expected to apply the lesson from the technical portion of the lesson in the follow me part, but also we were expected to problem solve in the field or terrain riding with the instructor's help when necessary. In this way each lesson was both part of the curriculum and also very unique for that day's conditions. This might sound overly dramatic, but each lesson was comparable to a oil painting, where today with almost all lessons being on the flat in an arena, I would compare lessons to prints of a painting, and prints are pretty much fungible.
As a traditionalist, I see so many small steps away from quality. Example, my lessons began the minute a student arrived at the barn. How a rider went through a gate when they brought a horse in from the paddock was part of their instruction (always swing the gate out away from you and the horse, not in toward you incase the horse spooks and pulls you forward into the metal gate). Every detail of safety and relationship with the was mentioned when appropriate. Today I see increasingly that the lesson begins when the student(s) is mounted. As a result riders do not mount safely. I watch many not hold the reins when mounting. Heaven help those riders if they ever get on a horse that takes off the moment the rider's seat hits the saddle, and there are many like this.
Safe effective riding is in the details. Conveying useful information in instruction is an art specific to the individual rider on a given day. I have always felt that the amount paid reflects the quality of the lessons as it does in so many things. So, to confuse the value is not good.
As for lesson packages, I did them. Students bought a 10 lesson package and receive a discount. I stopped when a woman insisted that she had one more lesson left after she had 10 (I gave her 11). Plus, keeping track was a nightmare.
The issue is not generational. It has to do with perspective.You see what you think is a lowering of quality. I'm relatively certain that the younger instructors view it as offering an easier pay schedule, which in reality has nothing to do with what goes on in the lesson. I think you probably have a legitimate case for lower quality lessons, but I really don't think it has anything to do with cost of lesson, or payment schedule. Bob, you have brought up what you perceive is a problem with riding in general several times. I think that it hits you harder because horses, lessons and riding has been your business, indeed, your life.
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Post by horseguy on Mar 21, 2017 16:24:42 GMT
"I think that it hits you harder because horses, lessons and riding has been your business, indeed, your life." I agree and I also see it in so many other ways. Example, I love Snap On hand tools. They are made in the USA to very high standards and they make a tough job easier, plus they just feel better. They cost more but are worth it because of the quality and durability, and they hold their value. When I downsized and left the farm I sold some quality tools and got more than I paid for many. What I am saying is quality costs more and that cuts both ways. The "seller", meaning instructor, of a higher quality object or service commands a higher price which in America translates to respect. The "buyer", meaning student, pays that higher price out of appreciation of and respect for that value. I do not know if you have every been to or used Harbor Freight tools, but they are absolute crap. When I rarely buy something there I do so with the level of respect I have for a styrofoam cup, disposable, worthless, transient usefulness. I am sensitive to the degradation of riding instruction, its quality, respect for instructors, safety and more, and I see it too in tools, plumbing fixtures, food, almost everything. I wonder if people even notice. But the good news is there are some people keeping up standards, like Snap On tools, Kimber firearms, Orville Redenbacher popcorn, Red Wing boots, Airstream campers and many more. Did I mention that we keep dropping in international eventing competition?
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Post by rideanotherday on Mar 21, 2017 17:10:40 GMT
"I think that it hits you harder because horses, lessons and riding has been your business, indeed, your life." I agree and I also see it in so many other ways. Example, I love Snap On hand tools. They are made in the USA to very high standards and they make a tough job easier, plus they just feel better. They cost more but are worth it because of the quality and durability, and they hold their value. When I downsized and left the farm I sold some quality tools and got more than I paid for many. What I am saying is quality costs more and that cuts both ways. The "seller", meaning instructor, of a higher quality object or service commands a higher price which in America translates to respect. The "buyer", meaning student, pays that higher price out of appreciation of and respect for that value. I do not know if you have every been to or used Harbor Freight tools, but they are absolute crap. When I rarely buy something there I do so with the level of respect I have for a styrofoam cup, disposable, worthless, transient usefulness. I am sensitive to the degradation of riding instruction, its quality, respect for instructors, safety and more, and I see it too in tools, plumbing fixtures, food, almost everything. I wonder if people even notice. But the good news is there are some people keeping up standards, like Snap On tools, Kimber firearms, Orville Redenbacher popcorn, Red Wing boots, Airstream campers and many more. Did I mention that we keep dropping in international eventing competition? I won't shop at harbor freight and I won't buy a saddle at Fleet Farm (upper midwest farm supply store). I made myself a promise when I was a kid. When I could afford better, I would buy better. I work in Quality Assurance. I know what accountability and integrity are. It is difficult to instill values into processes when the people who are performing are paid just barely over minimum wage. It is a cultural issue - and by culture, I mean American culture. McDonald's, the microwave and air conditioning killed our work ethic.
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Post by horseguy on Mar 21, 2017 17:16:23 GMT
"I mean American culture. McDonald's, the microwave and air conditioning killed our work ethic."
I was the only polo player I knew who drove to a game in a truck without air-conditioning. When I got out of the truck to unload horses, tack up and play I was used to the weather. It often took other players in August a couple periods of play to adjust. That's one way you can slant to odds in your favor.
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Post by Maritza on Mar 21, 2017 21:00:42 GMT
I'm a strong believer of quality over quantity. But sometimes I must compromise on this because I barely make over min wage in CO. My lessons are $60 for an hour long private lesson and I believe they are worth it. (My current trainer reminds me a lot of Bob in many ways) but because I refuse to compromise on quality in horseback riding I have to sacrifice elsewhere in my life.
I do believe that the cost of the lesson is an indication of the quality of the instruction you will receive.
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Post by horseguy on Mar 22, 2017 2:31:30 GMT
I'm a strong believer of quality over quantity. But sometimes I must compromise on this because I barely make over min wage in CO. My lessons are $60 for an hour long private lesson and I believe they are worth it. (My current trainer reminds me a lot of Bob in many ways) but because I refuse to compromise on quality in horseback riding I have to sacrifice elsewhere in my life. I do believe that the cost of the lesson is an indication of the quality of the instruction you will receive. I agree.
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Post by grayhorse on Mar 22, 2017 4:01:31 GMT
I think with anything you have to judge the individual...I know some trainers (what HG would call "Form" riding instructors from the other thread) who charge $80+ a lesson and you might as well flush that $80 down the toilet...whereas some of the best riding instructors I've had charge around $50.00...and I am more than willing to pay $60 for those instructors.
My current jump trainer allows me to pay a package price or I can pay as I go ... he is flexible. One issue is his barn has new ownership and they are now asking for a $30 haul in fee which is pretty steep and adds up fast so I was bummed I would not be able to afford very many lessons anymore. But the universe works in weird ways sometimes. I decided ok fine I'll take my jump lessons on a lesson horse then. Best decision I ever made. Same lesson price, no haul-in charge. I am so grateful and am having a delightful time learning from and riding a horse that isn't stopping, charging or bucking to and after fences. It is a breath of fresh air and I have been slowly overcoming my jumping anxiety. The one thing that always kills me is clinic fee's...You get stuck in a group of 10 people pay 300-500 bucks for a weekend clinic and really only get maybe 30 minutes of real instruction a day. Ok sure I get to have lunch and watch the clinician work but really? I feel my 500 bucks is much better spent on individual lessons...just my humble opinion.
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Post by rideanotherday on Mar 22, 2017 11:09:27 GMT
I think with anything you have to judge the individual...I know some trainers (what HG would call "Form" riding instructors from the other thread) who charge $80+ a lesson and you might as well flush that $80 down the toilet...whereas some of the best riding instructors I've had charge around $50.00...and I am more than willing to pay $60 for those instructors. My current jump trainer allows me to pay a package price or I can pay as I go ... he is flexible. One issue is his barn has new ownership and they are now asking for a $30 haul in fee which is pretty steep and adds up fast so I was bummed I would not be able to afford very many lessons anymore. But the universe works in weird ways sometimes. I decided ok fine I'll take my jump lessons on a lesson horse then. Best decision I ever made. Same lesson price, no haul-in charge. I am so grateful and am having a delightful time learning from and riding a horse that isn't stopping, charging or bucking to and after fences. It is a breath of fresh air and I have been slowly overcoming my jumping anxiety. The one thing that always kills me is clinic fee's...You get stuck in a group of 10 people pay 300-500 bucks for a weekend clinic and really only get maybe 30 minutes of real instruction a day. Ok sure I get to have lunch and watch the clinician work but really? I feel my 500 bucks is much better spent on individual lessons...just my humble opinion. That's really interesting. I have always gotten a lot out of clinics. It's not just the time I get with the instructor - I get to see what others are dealing with and how they work through them.
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Post by grayhorse on Mar 23, 2017 2:47:16 GMT
That's really interesting. I have always gotten a lot out of clinics. It's not just the time I get with the instructor - I get to see what others are dealing with and how they work through them. Hi Rideanotherday, I have learned from clinics too...actually there are a few local trainers in my area that put on some amazing clinic's that are informative, thorough and offer an overall great experience. I have attended these and would attend them again, and they don't cost 500 bucks actually they are more in the 200 dollar range for a full weekend. Maybe its just me but I would rather book close to 3 months of private weekly lessons with trainers I know and trust because I can be consistent with them and I get their full attention while riding. I am grateful for the trainers I currently work with and value them. I feel like spending a large amount of my horse budget on one of these really expensive weekend clinics is taking money right out my own trainers pockets and that thought just doesn't sit well with me. I mean, I may never see or work with said clinician ever again. That isn't to say I can't learn from someone other than my own trainers, of course I can and yes I agree I do like to observe and watch other people work through things...for that, I usually choose the option to audit. In my experience audit fees run in the $20 or $30 range which is just fine with me Carrie
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