|
|
Post by Laura on Mar 22, 2017 15:06:01 GMT
I am writing a paper on what could be considered a controversial topic; the use of bits. Many people use them, but there are also people who are very against the use of any type of bit. Some people swear by hackamores and bitless bridles, etc. I'd like to hear what your thoughts are on this subject. What do you use, or think is best? Why do you use what you do? Do you refuse to use any piece of equipment? I think getting opinions from people is better than just relying on a few written sources. I'd love to hear what you all think.
|
|
|
|
Post by rideanotherday on Mar 22, 2017 17:11:21 GMT
I am writing a paper on what could be considered a controversial topic; the use of bits. Many people use them, but there are also people who are very against the use of any type of bit. Some people swear by hackamores and bitless bridles, etc. I'd like to hear what your thoughts are on this subject. What do you use, or think is best? Why do you use what you do? Do you refuse to use any piece of equipment? I think getting opinions from people is better than just relying on a few written sources. I'd love to hear what you all think. My preference is to use the least amount of "bit" that I can use for the horse and application. In general, that means a snaffle bit. I prefer to use bits with at least 2 breaks, because it's less likely to pinch a horse's tongue. I'm not a big fan of using gag type bits because the level of skill needed to use them appropriately is so high. I'm sure others will have lots to input here! Great question. |
|
|
|
Post by jimmy on Mar 23, 2017 5:30:06 GMT
I cringe when I hear hackamores used in the same sentence as bitless bridles. The name hackamore is an English bastardization of the Spanish word, Jaquima. A Jaquime is also known as a bosal. The system employed by the early Californios of the mission era was to start a horse in a hackamore, then progress to a two rein of a smaller diameter bosalito, underneath a bridle with a spade bit. The horse learned most everything he needed to learn in the hackamore, then learned to carry the spade via the two rein set up.Snaffle bits did not show up in this system until the twentieth century. Peop I am very much a spade bit man, following in the tradition. People who think bits are cruel, or unnecessary, cringe at the sight of a spade bit. They don't understand. A friend of mine put together this little video which is a very good explanation of the spade. www.facebook.com/marcalt/videos/10154502644803023/or this link youtu.be/AAKraRfkHD4the second link seems to play better, and there are links to other similar videos if you are interested. |
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Mar 23, 2017 11:24:02 GMT
That video is the most densely packed 4:22 minutes of information I have ever seen. Thank you. I learned a lot. We all come up through a tradition. I have had only intermittent and indirect contact with the western/Spanish system. As a result, spade bits have always scared me. I have never ridden a horse in one. My loss. |
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Mar 23, 2017 11:49:52 GMT
I was trained in the traditional system that used snaffles and double bridles (a leverage bit combined with usually a small bradoon snaffle). I was taught that the snaffle was the most versatile bit in the hands of a rider who knew how to use it. Knowing how to use it meant that with a snaffle you could balance a horse with it in many varied ways. It is interesting to hear how the spade, with time, teaches the horse to balance himself. That is optimum. I learned that riding off contact with a bit on challenging terrain taught a horse to balance himself along with precision training like dressage. Either way, the goal is a balanced horse that balances himself.
Therefore, can a hackamore and separately can a bitless bridle be used to get to the place where a horse balances themselves? On the bitless I have no experience, so I don't know. All I have in that regard is snap reins on a halter, which is how I start young prospects. I have always considered bitless bridles as halters with reins attached. I use this set up on prospects in order to avoid any possibility of a bad experience with a bridle, bit or reins as much as possible in the beginning of training until I feel the prospect is far enough long to introduce a bit, which for me is usually a fat loose ring snaffle.
I have had horses that go best in a hackamore. Most notably were former racehorses that had become so bit sour that any bit distracted them. Racehorses are taught to extend their stride partially by means of leaning into the bit while the jockey "hold them up" with the reins. I find this concept odd but apparently it works or is thought to work in the iconoclastic horse world of racing. Race trainers will even wrap a bit in leather if a horse objects to a bit in order to get a horse to lean into it. Seems odd to me.
Therefore my insights are limited with regard to the question to what I have experienced, and that is that the hackamore can be a useful alternative to "start fresh" in retraining a horse.
What I have learned over the years is the horse has to have a say in the bit. I don't go out of my way to please a horse unless they deserve it, but with regard to bits I do try to find a bit that makes a horse comfortable doing the tasks I am teaching him to do. I have never been on that popular quest to find the "right bit" but I have tried very hard not to use the wrong bit.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimmy on Mar 23, 2017 13:17:36 GMT
You would be surprised how easily most horses will carry a spade comfortably. Horses with low pallets don't do so well, but then, those have trouble with a lot of bits, even a snaffle.
The reason bitless can't be used as synonymous with a hackamore, is that the whole system was designed to so that a horse would wear a spade eventually. The whole deal was to put a horse in a bit. Then the horse works with a slack rein with the lightest of touches. he does not achieve carriage by way of contact, but by how the spade encourages carriage. Considering the ability and conformation.
The hackamore was a way to protect their mouth, and to a large extent, the spade is designed to protect the mouth. A horse gaping at the bit or throwing his head would be blasphemy! And show an unskilled rider with bad hands. Which is universal in distaste, I think.
I see no benefit to avoiding the skill of the hands, and the feel of the feet and body, through the reins via a bit, by simply going "bitless".
A hackamore has some weight and feel to it. It swings and returns to a neutral, much the same way a spade does.
The bitless bridles that I have seen, have no feel to them, any more than a halter. Which is great for a lateral pull, and the first few rides and steering. But one has to consider, how are you eventually going to transfer a lateral pull to an indirect rein, in order to ride a horse in one hand, and have a neck rein?
Some have achieved some amount of carriage with a bitless set up, but mostly, I see trail riders hacking around with them. Dressage horses I have seen with a nose band doing well were in hands that were probably educated by using a bit at some point.
|
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Mar 24, 2017 15:37:41 GMT
This has caused me to think a lot about balance and achieving self carriage. Jimmy wrote that a horse in a spade "does not achieve carriage by way of contact, but by how the spade encourages carriage. It reminded me of when I discovered the Japanese wood saw. Our western culture assumes the correct way to saw wood is by means of pushing downward force.  The eastern saw is based on pulling, not pushing.  The eastern saw uses the pulling to keep the blade straight while the western saw requires care and skill in order not to bow the blade while pushing downward. The eastern is simpler as well as inherently and passively more effective in its action. I am thinking the spade bit is like the eastern saw. It seems inherently more of a self teaching devise as opposed to the bits in common use that require more care and skill to be effective in teaching a horse self carrage. Very interesting. |
|
|
|
Post by rideanotherday on Mar 24, 2017 17:25:49 GMT
This has caused me to think a lot about balance and achieving self carriage. Jimmy wrote that a horse in a spade "does not achieve carriage by way of contact, but by how the spade encourages carriage. It reminded me of when I discovered the Japanese wood saw. Our western culture assumes the correct way to saw wood is by means of pushing downward force. The eastern saw is based on pulling, not pushing. The eastern saw uses the pulling to keep the blade straight while the western saw requires care and skill in order not to bow the blade while pushing downward. The eastern is simpler as well as inherently and passively more effective in its action. I am thinking the spade bit is like the eastern saw. It seems inherently more of a self teaching devise as opposed to the bits in common use that require more care and skill to be effective in teaching a horse self carrage. Very interesting. This topic makes me wish I still had my notes from college. I hand drew different bits and their actions. My instructors were very big on making sure we knew what the bits we were using did. A spade is balanced such that when a horse holds it's face on the vertical, the spade (port) of the bit is neutral in action (no pressure on the roof of the mouth). It takes time and development for a horse to be able to carry itself the right way, much like a dressage horse must learn how to work and balance before being put in a double bridle and working on the curb. |
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Mar 24, 2017 19:10:53 GMT
I have to preface this by saying I know nothing about spade bits (again). I do know a little about ports on bits.
We begin with a mullen mouth (straight bit)
that puts downward pressure on the tongue. When we add the port the center of the mullen mouth
the bit pressure on the tongue becomes uneven and that unevenness forces the center of the tongue up into the port, which results in something like a "pinch" sensation on the horse's tongue.
If the port is made higher, the amount of tongue forced up into the port increases
and that "pinch" of the tongue becomes more intense.
As far as I can tell with my limited knowledge of spade bits, I do not believe that the typical spade employs this tongue "pinching" action of the typical port mouth bit. I am sure Jimmy can clarify.
By the way, a snaffle also has the ability to pinch the tongue when it hinges in the center, 
particularly if it is a little too wide a mouth for the horse's mouth.
A double mouth snaffle with offset hinge points in the middle
can really pinch a tongue.
Add this double offset hinged mouths to a big ring gag
And you have one of the most intense bits on the planet. This bit, called the Barry gag after a polo player named Mr. Barry, has poll cracking power from the big rings leverage and the scissoring pinching on the tongue, along with pretty intense bar action from the narrow mouths. Argentine players can use these like a scalpel in the hands of a brain surgeon. But for almost everyone else it's a folks-don't-try-this-at-home kind of bit.
|
|
|
|
Post by rideanotherday on Mar 27, 2017 15:15:18 GMT
I have to preface this by saying I know nothing about spade bits (again). I do know a little about ports on bits.
We begin with a mullen mouth (straight bit)
that puts downward pressure on the tongue. When we add the port the center of the mullen mouth
the bit pressure on the tongue becomes uneven and that unevenness forces the center of the tongue up into the port, which results in something like a "pinch" sensation on the horse's tongue.
If the port is made higher, the amount of tongue forced up into the port increases
and that "pinch" of the tongue becomes more intense.
As far as I can tell with my limited knowledge of spade bits, I do not believe that the typical spade employs this tongue "pinching" action of the typical port mouth bit. I am sure Jimmy can clarify.
By the way, a snaffle also has the ability to pinch the tongue when it hinges in the center,
particularly if it is a little too wide a mouth for the horse's mouth.
A double mouth snaffle with offset hinge points in the middle
can really pinch a tongue.
Add this double offset hinged mouths to a big ring gag
And you have one of the most intense bits on the planet. This bit, called the Barry gag after a polo player named Mr. Barry, has poll cracking power from the big rings leverage and the scissoring pinching on the tongue, along with pretty intense bar action from the narrow mouths. Argentine players can use these like a scalpel in the hands of a brain surgeon. But for almost everyone else it's a folks-don't-try-this-at-home kind of bit.
You are missing some parts, especially with the leverage bits. We'll start with the mullen mouth. The mullen has 3 areas of action. The bars (and to a lesser extent,the tongue) the poll and there is also action on the curb chain (poll and chin action is due to leverage from the shanks and purchase). When you add a port, you begin to have action on the roof of the mouth as well. I never read anything that indicated that mullens or ported bits "pinch" as part of their function. However, a snaffle with only one break certainly has the potential to have a nutcracker effect if both reins are pulled back on with matching force. I will refrain from commentary on the gag beyond a discussion of it's action. The forces act on the corners of the mouth, the poll, to a lesser extent upon the roof of the mouth. There is some leverage involved, but not as much as a bit with purchase and shanks. |
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Mar 27, 2017 21:55:17 GMT
I agree with what you say up until, " When you add a port, you begin to have action on the roof of the mouth as well."
It takes a pretty high port to reach the roof of the mouth. Here below is a port that no one would consider that it would reach the roof of the mouth.
If a port always acts on the roof, and this one obviously does not, then what is the port for? I assert that it is there to act on the tongue. I agree that the straight Mullen mouth has minimal action on the tongue, but once you create an uneven surface like the above bit, like, the tongue starts to get "forced" into a shape of the port. This is the beginning of the "pinch" (note quotes around the word pinch - that's the best word I can come up with).
I think this bit shows how high a port must be to have action on the roof of the mouth.
In my view, this bit mouth works on the tongue using the port and on the roof of the mouth with the spade part above the port. There is also lever action but I would like to sat focused on the port.
Based on what I learned from Jimmy about the balance of a correct spade, this one might be a bad spade in that it does not appear balanced in it weight such that a horse could learn carriage from it.
Laura, I apologize for getting so far off the bittless vs. Hackamore question you raised. |
|
|
|
Post by jacki on Mar 28, 2017 6:22:24 GMT
"this one might be a bad spade in that it does not appear balanced in it weight such that a horse could learn carriage from it" -- Rollkur, anyone? (ugh)  Jacki
|
|
|
|
Post by jimmy on Mar 28, 2017 13:41:21 GMT
The spade is set apart from the simple curb. In fact, most folks don't consider the spade bit a curb at all.
What sets the spade apart from a curb are the braces. Braces increase the surface area, and give the bit some suction, if you will. The horse has a lot of bit to suck up on. He can also push the entire thing with his tongue and cushion the effects of leverage. Also, the cannon bar,(part going across the mouth, is not open at the port, what some call tongue relief. The cricket is also important. A spade without a cricket is not a spade.
It really is more about the tongue than the roof of the mouth or the chin strap. The chin strap is there mostly to prevent the spade from over rotating and hitting the roof of the mouth. I don't think any curb is suppose to work off the roof of the mouth. What the horse is theoretically supposed to feel, is when the the spoon leaves the tongue when the rein is used. That is the first thing he feels.
The other interesting thing about the spade bit is the point where the braces attach to the cheek pieces is above and slightly behind the fulcrum point of the cannon. What this does is widen the pivot point in a way. The braces where they attach touch the corner of the mouth and the cannon doesn't.
It is also traditional to use a leather strap and never chain under the chin.
In thinking about spade bits, it is important to consider that the horse first learns practically everything in the hackamore first. And a neck rein. By the time he is straight up in the spade, the bit is there to fill his mouth, provide salivation and tongue movement which keeps the jaw relaxed. It is not wise to school the horse in the spade as far as fixing in problem. You go back to the two rein, or the hackamore or snaffle to fix things.
This is the idealogy of the spade. Other mouth pieces have come along, like the mona lisa, the salinas mouth piece, the frog, the san juaquine are still used with the process in mind. They don't have the braces, but keep the cricket with a copper cover. The do allow for more pull and using leverage, and are more forgiving to a pull then the spade, since the spade was not designed to be pulled on.
|
|
|
|
Post by Laura on Mar 29, 2017 12:37:39 GMT
Thank you all for your input thus far. It's been very helpful. I have one more question. What is the major difference between the hackamore that you have been describing and a mechanical hackamore? I see a visual difference between the two, but I think it would be helpful to understand the difference between them mechanically.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimmy on Mar 29, 2017 13:35:12 GMT
Thank you all for your input thus far. It's been very helpful. I have one more question. What is the major difference between the hackamore that you have been describing and a mechanical hackamore? I see a visual difference between the two, but I think it would be helpful to understand the difference between them mechanically. A mechanical hackamore is a lever with quite a lot of grab and pinch. The harder you pull, the more it binds on the horses face. The more it hurts. Some call it a bear trap. It's an appalling crude piece of equipment I wouldn't have one in my barn and couldn't throw one far enough off my place. There is no mechanics or mechanical advantage to a bosal. The more you pull the less it works, until your horse ignores it and runs off. A horse has to be taught what it means. A rider has to be educated in how to use one. You can't hold onto a horse in a hackamore. It operated with a pull and slack. The reins must be finessed. If you really want some education on true hackamore, I suggest you read an old book called, Hackamore Reinsman, by Ed Connell. Also, Reinsmen of the West, Bridles and Bits by the same author. You would learn a lot about why and how. |
|
