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Post by rideanotherday on Nov 18, 2015 12:05:30 GMT
In theory, I like clicker training. It's classical conditioning and makes a lot of sense. I've seen it very successfully used with dogs many times. It seems like when applied to horses, it kinda goes pear shaped. "Loading" the clicker (click /treat/click/treat etc) goes pretty well and the horse like getting their treats pretty well. The part where the trainer should be using the "click" as the reward doesn't seem to be transitioned well.
Has anyone seen clicker training really work with horses? With the reins in my hands, I feel like there's more than enough in my hands anyway.
Other thoughts?
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Post by jimmy on Nov 19, 2015 4:42:10 GMT
That goes under the heading: "Don't get me started!"
I've had endless round and rounds about this.
In a nut shell, to me, it is a distraction from the real business of riding and training.
A trick circus horse, okay.
But not an improvement to the art of horsemanship. IMO
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Post by horseguy on Nov 19, 2015 12:49:59 GMT
The best or nicest thing I can say about clicker training is that it demonstrates the universal versatility of the horse in its ability to work with humans. Horses will, it seems, always figure out what a human is looing for, and most will do their best to "get involved" with the human. This is the Unity Impulse. The real improvement in Horsemanship would be for the humans to be equally in pursuit of Unity. Instead, what I see is humans imposing their will, their ego, their fantasies, their baseless concepts of the nature of the horse and other endless ideas of an unbalanced relationship with the horse. A great horseman once said, "Let the horse move you". How different is this from a human cueing a horse with a clicker? I'd rather see horses clicking to humans.
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Post by horseguy on Nov 24, 2015 16:51:29 GMT
You know, I thought we have a more lively discussion of clicker training. It's apparently huge in the dog training world. I also train dogs, but not professionally. This is my dog Hammer.  Hammer, Martillo to my new neighbors here in the "hood", is a Walker fox hound. When we moved off the farm to the city I noticed almost every city dog I encountered was very untrained. Walking Hammer one night after dinner, I experienced a 90 pound woman with a Pit-bull being dragged across a busy intersection by her dog toward mine. Hammer and I managed to fend off the wild lump of muscle, and I began to think of maybe starting an inner city dog training program. Long story short, the local dog community, of which I have never been a part anywhere, is very much into clicker training. Also, if you think the "pet problem" in horses is out of hand, these dog people are offended by the thought of a dog working. I let that idea go, but when I saw this post I recalled my brief foray into professional dog training. Lots of clickers.  |
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Post by rideanotherday on Nov 24, 2015 17:57:10 GMT
I'd have thought it would have been more of a topic as well. I train dogs as well and have a lovely 12 y/o border collie mix who I can take anywhere. She's awesome. I was able to walk her when I was on crutches earlier this year. She will go as slow or fast as I want to and never pulls. I've been stopped in the pet store before to ask how I got her to act like that. Um....training? It's not something people do much of, I guess.
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Post by jimmy on Nov 25, 2015 4:19:09 GMT
I usually contribute more when there is a die hard clicker trainer of horses trying to convince me why its such a better way to train a horse. I like to dismantle their argument. Most of it circles around it being based on nothing but positive reward.
I'm all for reward. But watch a group of horses together. There isn't much rewarding going on. They push each other, or send each other, away with their body language, or their bodies. Some kind of physical pressure usually follows when a horse asks, warns, another horse to move.
All the things that clicker trainers site as being able to accomplish, I have been able to accomplish quite effectively for many years, and it has been understood perfectly by the horse.
And there have been many people reporting the negative side of clicker trained horses. Usually what happens somewhere inbetween when treats are still used, and when they are not, and the clicker is used.
I think the clicker acts like a third party into the relationship and direct communication between a person and a horse. Three's a crowd, I say.
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Post by rideanotherday on Nov 25, 2015 18:10:05 GMT
Clicker training, at least initially, relies on food motivation. Dogs are designed to eat "meals", meaning there's separation between times of eating. Horses are grazers so food should be happening all the time, or at least most horses would have it so. The reason I don't care for treats with dogs or horses is because I think it gives the animals (dog or horse) the wrong idea about the relationship I want to have during training sessions. I don't want them thinking about resources that could be distractions from the training session.
There's somewhat of a disconnect for most people on what positive and negative reinforcement is, or what it means. Positive reinforcement simply means that you "give" something for a behavior. Negative reinforcement means you "take" something away in response to a behavior. A neutral response is also an option. This is all from classic psychology. I prefer to use my voice or a pat, rub, scratch etc as my "clicker" for horses, since they seem to like it just as much without getting pushy over it.
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Post by horseguy on Nov 25, 2015 19:03:01 GMT
I don't use treats either. I will give apples from the orchard to the horses in their feed bucket at feeding time, but not as reward treats. The biggest downside I have ever seen to treats was at a barn where I worked. Every boarder and student had a pocket full of treats. Peppermints, the kind you get at a diner checkout register, were the favorite. A woman once stopped in the aisle to chat with another boarder who was grooming her horse. As the second woman was standing there talking, the horse lunged down to her jeans pocket and "grabbed" at her pocket full of treats, lifting her off the ground. That horse could smell the peppermints through the jeans and through the cellophane wrapping. I suspect she had black & blue teeth marks at the top of her thigh for months. Regarding rewards, I use my voice a lot. But the best reward I see a horse responding to is knowing he has done his job well. I think it takes three years to train a polo horse. Most of that time is on the field practicing or playing in a game. They learn the game and while I don't think they get the part of the ball going between the posts as a goal, they do get the individual acts like the sound of a good hit. When you connect with the ball 100% there is a crack sound and most horses that have played a while really take off when their rider makes that sound. It genuinely feels like they get it that the crack sound is a good thing and that it's time to celebrate with an exuberant run when their rider hits the ball that well. I think a lot of them also get it when they put a good bump on another horse.  |
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Post by balefire on Dec 1, 2015 12:01:43 GMT
I clickertrained a horse some years ago. She was a trotter and in a very bad shape, when I got her. Long story short ........ When she "graduated" sometimes the clicker was the only reward, when I interduced a new step, she sometimes liked her food reward as well. The clicker just told the horse, that, what you did was the right thing. Sometimes it came out, that the way was the goal.
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candy
New Member
Posts: 6 
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Post by candy on Dec 1, 2015 19:40:09 GMT
I have used clicker training in the past with good results. I only used this type of training from the ground. I have had dangerous horses, and with the clicker I could handle them and desensitize then in a round pen using the this method of training, so that was a positive. I have used it on young horses to get them used to being handled before they were old enough to ride, with good results. Also my results using clicker training with respect to training a horse to load on a horse trailer were positive as well. My thoughts on clicker training are, it is a good way to help with ground work, my experience with it was fun, but to use it from the saddle,I don't know
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Post by horseguy on Dec 2, 2015 14:15:19 GMT
Balefire and Candy have had positive results with clicker training. The positive I get from their posts is, it works. In thinking about this, one reason it might work better than another technique in various circumstances is that the sound is very distinct, uncommon and thus sticks out in the horse's experience. I accept that principle. That is why sometimes, with specific horses in narrow circumstances and challenges, I will use a wiffle ball bat in training. Those bats make a very distinct almost metallic sound when they "touch" a horse, with the added cue of feeling something physical that does not cause pain. Remember wiffle ball bats are used by kids for safety reasons. A child can be hit in the teeth with one and not need a dentist. But my use of this odd tool is very brief. I use it as a change of course tool. It would not occur to me to approach the corporation that owns the wiffle ball bat patents to develop a horse training program using their product. I also like that once used in training, the horse can be assured he will never see another wiffle ball bat, and thus if any fear that may have come from the experience will be gone. Not so if a whip is used in training.  My point is that unconventional attention getting tools can be very useful in training, but as a system, if employed long term, they can distract from or dilute the process of developing unity with a horse because they are so separate from the usual and essential process of riding. I feel the same way about "kiss" sounds. I played polo with a true gentleman of the old school years ago. He used the kiss sound to cause his horses to accelerate quickly at this sound. We generally played on the same team, but when we were opponents and he was cantering to hit a ball, I would make the kiss sound next to his horse and it would accelerate making him miss his shot, he having been pushed back into the saddle. Being such gentleman he'd say to me in the most even tone, "I wish you wouldn't do that." |
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 2, 2015 14:53:15 GMT
I've seen noises backfire on people in the show ring as well, mostly with western rail classes. Kisses, different words etc. Funny for everyone else, not so great for the person that it messes up.
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