|
Post by horseguy on Sept 13, 2015 18:53:24 GMT
This forum's foundation is intended to be "historically based principles of effective horsemanship". I think it is worth exploring the meaning of effectiveness in changing times and how changes over time have effected, in this case, equipment. My personal reference point is military effectiveness in riding. At the height of U.S. Cavalry horsemanship development at Fort Riley between the wars in the 1920s and 30s, a double bridle was the standard. This set up had a leverage bit, a Weymouth, and a snaffle bradoon. It was relatively simple and provided a versatile range of application of the rider's hands. It is not uncommon to see pictures of a soldier using this bridle where he was using only the bradoon reins and the leverage bit reins are relaxed off contact. However, when in a more stressful context, the rider had a great many options from which to chose by adding the Weymouth's leverage, and its chin, poll, tongue and bars pressure points for greater control of balance and other required elements in a short or long period of demanding riding. Today the demands and lulls of military riding are nearly all gone. In some traditional sports like fox hunting and polo, a wide range of demands still exists and we therefore still see riders using the double bridle. We also see it in dressage, I believe for greater precision.
gilmorehorsemanship.com/bits.html
What we do commonly see today is this set up, a ring gag, a figure eight nose band and a running martingale all used together.
www.shemovedtotexas.com/wef-junior-jumper-hardware/Presumably this rig is effective, but for what? Or in other words, how has the definition of effectiveness changed such that this combination of ring gag, a figure eight nose band and a running martingale is a common choice? My personal opinion is that this set up is prevalent because so many riders today are over horsed and they need these kinds of elaborate combinations of hardware for basic control of their horse. This conclusion leads directly to the question of "purchasing" solutions to the challenges we face with our horses, or increasing our riding skills to meet those challenges.
If you attend a typical upper level Hunter/Jumper show today, you will probably see mostly these kinds of set ups and variations on them. The simple snaffle bridle is no longer the rule. My question is, how many contemporary riders, given more instruction (and probably more diversity of riding experiences outside a specialty) could ride the same horse in a simple snaffle in competition? I would guess most of them, but why do they not take that option? I'm not sure. I would speculate it is because of feelings that their opponents might have an edge over them if they stray from the intense controlling power of these mechanical combination rigs. This reminds me of a trend at the race tracks years ago, people began feeding bee pollen as a stimulant. Very shortly, every racehorse was on bee pollen because of this not wanting to give up an edge principle. Bee pollen went on until it became a questionably useful supplement. Trends, go figure? Another reason for the popularity of these kinds of complicated set ups might be simple as fashion, as in "if you are to be a serious competitor, you must look like one." Both of these "reasons", the edge principle and fashion, if they are in fact driving the use of these contraption like rigs, are in my traditional sense overkill and any issues they are meant to overcome could better be dealt with through better riding skills in most cases.
I will add a disclaimer. There are horses that need specialized equipment, but they are few and far between. But still, when you get one of these horses and you have explored all the options and evaluated the time required to reschool the horse, then and only then you are correct in constructing a purchased solution. But then it is not over. You must introduce the set up, adjust it and develop a means to use it most effectively, meaning, purchasing a solution to solve a challenge is far more involved than simply buying hardware and putting it on your horse. There are no simple purchased equipment solutions in my experience, and therefore going down that road requires heightened awareness because the fact that you are on that road might indicate a different problem. Caution is advised.
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Sept 14, 2015 12:30:19 GMT
The following post is something from a student about a horse she has been riding for an owner with a rig like this in the picture. The horse competes at Preliminary Level.
The explanation from the owner for the a ring gag, a figure eight nose band and a running martingale set up is that the horse bolts on landing a jump in cross country. This is typical of the "reasons" for such a tack set up. My guess is the bolting on landing began because the owner could not get back into her horse soon enough after a jump, and the horse learned to celebrate the jump on landing by taking off. This is fairly common when a rider does not reconnect with their horse in the landing after the horse is released into the jump. Many riders get scared by the burst of energy on landing, and instead of learning how to ride better in order to control their horse, they go buy something to stop the bolting. The better answer is to jump more slowly, and have a task like a turn on landing. Generally, a horse bolts on landing because it has nothing to do. Give the horse something to do.
I will be curious to learn how this horse that bolts is tacked up for stadium jumping. In an arena the jumps are closer together and the horse must get on the new line more quickly after landing. The horse has something to do, and they tend not to celebrate so much, but rather get onto the next line and commit to the next jump.
My advice to my student was to be careful of this horse because he's been allowed to take off after jumps. By "allowed" I mean the use of the heavy handed restrictive tack acts more like an obstacle to be fought against than a training means, and as such the horse is not learning, just being restricted in a way that does not teach. This equipment solution, while it may stop the bolting, still allows the horse to feel the impulse, So I say it still "allows" the bolting impulse. He thinks that just how it is because he has not been ridden well in the landing. Good training removes the impulse to bolt and replaces it with an impulse to be ready for the next task.
One good rule for training jumping horses is - a jump has there parts, the approach, the jump and the landing. A good rider works separately and together on each of these three aspects of a jump. It seems the owner worked only on the first two and bought a solution for the third. A good place to start with a horse like this is the old striding exercise of, 3 in 2 out, 2 in 2 out, etc. You trot to a low jump and ask for a specific number of canter strides to the jump from the trot/canter transition, i.e. 3 strides into the take off. Then on landing, you as for a specific number of canter strides, i.e. 2 strides out from the jump, before a canter/trot transition. A horse that takes off on landing simply is not doing the third part of a jump, usually because the horse doesn't know that there are three parts. We can teach the horse that the landing must be executed just as the approach and the actual jump must be executed, with precise rhythm, balance and control. A rider does this by putting a task right after or right in the landing part. The simple striding in and out exercise is a good place to begin to teach the horse to pay attention to the landing, and be prepared for the next task.
|
|
|
Post by jimmy on Sept 15, 2015 14:11:00 GMT
Part of this problem is the knowledge and quality of the riding instructors and trainers coming out of the mill. The scenario is, more often than not, some young person who has had some success on a made horse, and made a little mark in the show ring. Maybe they worked for some big named trainer. The next thing you know they start a riding school and training barn, with dozen or so students. They may know jumping, and showing, but you can count on one hand the number of horses they have actually made, and they still have fingers left to hold their cafe latte. This instructors really have no qualifications to call themselves trainers. They don't have the background of studying the horse, of studying training, and seeing the long term solutions to problems.They don't have experience with difficult horses, or young horses. They may eventually gain the experience, but at the expense of their students and the horses they ride. So you see the local hunter jumper ring full of this. And if you listen to some of the advice being hollered out in the warm up, it's enough to make you cringe.
|
|
|
Post by Jacki on Sept 15, 2015 14:42:48 GMT
My daughter is the student referenced above. The horse was rescued from New Holland in pretty bad shape, and his current owner purchased him from the person who rescued him and got him back in good health/shape. I'm not sure who did the training. His current owner is meticulous in her care of her horse and very gracious in allowing my daughter to ride him. We have never seen her ride, but we presume she is a decent rider to be competing at preliminary level. My daughter has only ridden this horse three times, but he seems very willing, moves well and "listens" to her. (You'll have to excuse my lack of proper horse terminology - I am not a rider, but leave that to my daughter). The third time she rode, she removed the martingale and used the owner's "flat work" rig which also had a figure-eight nose band but just a snaffle bit. She mostly just walked and trotted him on a tour of the property and did a few flying lead changes (no jumping). She noticed right away that he moved much more freely. She would like to try jumping and more rigorous riding with a less restrictive rig, but obviously we need the owner's permission first - potentially a sticky subject, but she is very gracious, so we'll see. We purposely avoided the hunter/jumper circuit because of riding "shortcuts" and the drama we find typical of such places. So far, we feel this barn has great potential to increase my daughter's skills.
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Sept 15, 2015 14:55:18 GMT
Jimmy, thanks for posting. I agree. It is a situation where anyone can "be" a riding instructor regardless of their experience or knowledge. The Europeans have a range of solutions for this. They have either governmental licenses required to teach riding or nationwide standards from a Federation or Society that is in charge of certifying instructors. America has a such a body, the U.S. Equestrian Federation, but it has never addressed instruction standards in a meaningful way. All a "trainer" has to do is get a few students and they are a legitimate instructor today. As you say, they go on to cover the voids in their knowledge with purchased solutions. [/font][/p]
I would add to your take on this that many horse owners shift problems out of the realm of horsemanship to were they are comfortable which is shopping. For example, there horse takes off upon landing a jump, a common issue. An experienced horseman (term inclusive of women) would simply train the horse out of this impulse, but the inexperienced trainer does not know how. They know how to shop, so, they go in the internet and do a search, or maybe go on a forum full of kids from the show world and find encouragement for quick "solutions' that you can buy. They get encouragement for a solution that requires only that they shop for the right gadget, then purchase it, and wait for a package to arrive. If it doesn't work, then they have to shop some more (which I think many today find a pleasure) until they find a combination of straps, metal and buckles that stops their horse from taking off on landing.
What I don't get is they fail to see or feel, after installing these combinations of bits, martingales and nose bands, that their horse gets tight and loses range of motion, and often softness of rhythm and even some ability to balance quickly and effectively. If they get out trail riding or fox hunting on a slippery hillside and their horse hits a patch of greasy ground, their horse cannot respond effectively due to the limiting nature of the contraption they bought, and the horse falls to the ground. There is a substantial risk that their shopping spree will get them injured or worse, but that never seems to occur to them.
*** technical note - the type size is very small for this forum. I am working on changing the default size. Until I fix it please use the upper left box that says FONT and use a size 4 (14 pt) or larger. I can't afford new glasses right now, so that would be a help.
|
|
|
Post by jimmy on Sept 15, 2015 15:23:25 GMT
That's funny. The problem with horsemanship is shopping! Who knew? LOL
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Sept 15, 2015 16:06:00 GMT
Jimmy, I suspect you get some of those stories like, "OMG I spent 4 hours on the internet looking for "X" for my horse, and then you see the thing they bought, and listen to a lot more about the device that is the cure-all of some problem, real or imagined, the horse owner is solving. As an instructor I would get this all the time, and think to myself, "if you spent those hours riding, you might have a real solution." It sounds funny, yes, but shopping for solutions sure feels better to many horse owners than working directly on an issue. Besides, they can do it at work.
|
|
|
Post by jacki on Sept 15, 2015 17:11:53 GMT
As someone with ZERO knowledge of riding, I "shopped" online for a barn/instructor, and it's true that there are no standards, even if I knew what I was looking for. In the end, I simply "lucked out", and my daughter received EXCELLENT instruction. When her instructor retired, we knew more what to look for and have spent months "shopping" for a barn/instructor where her knowledge and training could improve, not backslide. We are trying out a new place and have high hopes, but we have come to have high expectations as well. If this new place does not work out, is there anything we can look for on a website or "buzzwords" to look out for; what questions can we ask, etc? Does membership in USEF mean anything?
On a separate note, is there a routine "progression" in bridling? You mentioned starting out with a simple snaffle bit. We would love to attend a bit clinic. I think my daughter would agree, the simpler the better. However, we would love to become more educated in different "rigs" and the reasons behind them. There's a LOT of gear out there, and someday my daughter may buy her own horse, and the info would be helpful. Then we'll have to start a post about what to look for when buying a horse!
We miss you horseguy!
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Sept 15, 2015 19:25:56 GMT
... is there a routine "progression" in bridling
I think I'd like to see a BITTING topic for this question because Jimmy is so knowledgeable about the old Vaquero method of training. It could get long an involved. I have a very limited understanding of this method but what I do know tells me the bitting process is very conscious and effective.
I was taught the old English sequence, which is basically (1) back a horse then get on with snap reins on a halter or with a Hackamore, (2) introduce the snaffle, and (3) refine the bit selection according to the discipline and the idiosyncrasies of the horse, and ALWAYS use the least severe bit that will work.
|
|
|
Post by jacki on Nov 16, 2015 3:39:23 GMT
"..they fail to see or feel, after installing these combinations of bits, martingales and nose bands, that their horse gets tight and loses range of motion, and often softness of rhythm and even some ability to balance quickly and effectively."
We bought Laura her own bridle yesterday. Prior to purchasing it, we discussed our desire for a "simpler rig" with the horse's owner. We told her we wanted to try a snaffle bit instead of the ring gag and that we didn't think we needed the figure eight noseband either. She cautioned us, saying he must have that nose band. When I asked why, she answered "that's his brakes!" He also plays with the bit and would ride with his mouth open without it. In the end, we bought a simple-looking leather bridle with reins she liked. We were going to fit it with a french-type 3-piece snaffle bit, but decided instead to try a waterford bit -- we had never seen one, but it seemed like it would be "easy on the mouth" as bits go. If you know that to not be the case, we welcome your advice.
Laura tried the new rig today. She did not use the running martingale, but in the interest of safety given my utter lack of knowledge of horses and the owner's warning, we did use the figure-eight noseband. Laura was delighted to find that the horse's stride was much more relaxed, resulting in an improved approach to jumps in the arena,a flatter jump and a better landing. Not once did he get "confused" in a lead, doing a left lead with his hind and a right with his front end or vice versa, something he had done frequently to date. She also cantered him faster to see if she could get him to "reach under" more and was very successful. He was similarly relaxed cross country.
We did notice that he does not bend at the poll (I hope I'm using the correct terminology) like he did in the old rig, giving him the carriage that seems to be prevalent in dressage photos. I'm not sure how important that is in eventing, but in my opinion the tradeoff of improved rhythm and relaxation is well worth it. Laura is looking forward to working with him more. She had no trouble stopping him or "steering" him. She thinks she can teach him not to "play with the bit" and will eventually be able to remove the extra nose band. In the meantime, she and the horse's owner are trying to arrange a time to go out to the barn together and ride. Laura is excited for her to see him move without so many restrictions and maybe to try the "rig" herself.
p.s. We loved the pics of Mocha and Beau - great memories.
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Nov 16, 2015 14:45:33 GMT
Whenever I hear someone refer to the bit as "breaks" I shutter. The biomechanics of a halt or half halt begins in the hind, with the reach under by the hind legs. The goal is to coax the horse to apply the heel of the hind hoofs to the ground.
An intense bit that is supposed to be "breaks" typically stiffens the horse's body, thus impairing their ability to flex their spine in the hind, and therefore making an effective halt or half halt more difficult by preventing them from using the heels of the hind hooves to grab the ground to stop. In worse cases, a horse will lean into a harsh bit to try to grab it to stop the pain. This shifts their weight to the forehand making it nearly impossible to use the their hind feet effectively in a halt or half halt. But the worst use of a harsh bit as "breaks" is when the bit stiffens the horse and lifts their front end due to the intense bit pain. Compare the flexation of the spine in the two pictures posted above. The bottom picture to me shows torture. The top picture shows a well trained horse allowed to flex his spine in an relaxed rounding that gets the legs under him to grab the ground in the most effective manner. This is the goal. Regarding the bending or flexing of the poll with the gag versus the Waterford or snaffle bit, a gag puts pressure on the poll and can be used to achieve poll flexation if the horse does not resist the pressure. In any event, poll pressure is a less direct method of achieving poll flexation than other means. It is a short cut. Therefore, when you remove the poll pressure by not using the gag, it makes sense that the horse stops flexing the poll. The most direct, but maybe not the fastest way of achieving natural poll flexation is by doing exercises that "show" the horse how it is most effective to balance with a flexed pool. The downward spiral is perhaps the best, in my opinion. In the downward spiral exercise we start with a large circles where the horse can relax. Once relaxed in the big circle, we make more circles with each progressive circle being smaller than the last. In the bigest circle the horse can have little or no poll flexation, but as the circles get smaller the horse must alter their body balance to accommodate the movements required by the smaller circles. The logical change in the horse's body is to increasingly flex their spine to accommodate the tighter turns of the smaller circles. There are, however, stubborn horses, like one named Snickers I once owned, who will refuse to soften their spine and will actually fall to the ground before flexing in this exercise. Typically these stubborn fool horses will not fall in a flat arena, but I am prone to take them to a side hill with wet grass to show them the error of their ways. Having had many horses fall under me in training, I have the experience to avoid injury in this kind of exercise, and I do not advise it for everyone. My point is that if a rider puts in the time to do the work of showing and teaching a horse optimum balance, most will relax, relent and flex because it is easier. In this sometimes long process, a proper bit can be useful. By proper, I mean a versatile bit that can coax and encourage in the sensitive hands of a good rider. One way to encourage flexation of the poll is to gently sway the horse's head by carefully "sawing" the bit in their mouth. For this work I like a fat (less harsh) loose ring snaffle. note: this bit is not legal for dressage due to the fact it is made of two different metalsThe fat mouth is nice for sawing the bit across the tongue and bars/gums. If you add full cheeks to this type of fat mouth snaffle, you can really sway a horse's head and that swaying will soften their poll and neck. I typically do this swaying/sawing work in a straight line and when I get some softness and flexation, I will continue the swaying/sawing into a bend off the straight line. A Waterford is not so good for use in swaying exercises because it can be painful on the horse's bars/gums. Another technique is to "tickle" the horses jaw by lowering the inside rein, while keeping contact with the outside rein in a rein of opposition. In a circle or spiral, up or down, I like to tickle the jaw by flexing my inside wrist either in a quick gentle tickle or a smooth circular movement. I do whatever works for a particular horse. The Waterford bit would be useful in this technique. As always, every horse is different. What it takes to first "show" and then encourage flexation at the poll and in the spine tends to vary from horse to horse. It can be a long trial and error process. Sometimes, and this is currently controversial, I will use draw reins to "show" a horse how poll flexation results in better balance in a bend. Few riders or trainers today know how to use draw reins correctly and this is why they are consider harsh, mean, etc. They are generally misused, over used and unconsciously used today. But if you use draw reins to only show the horse correct balance and then "make them disappear" by letting them slip through your fingers while you maintain the use of the direct reins, draw reins can be very effective. Using draw reins in this manner is not harsh, but it takes many years to learn how to do this correctly. I spent over a year doing conventional poll bending exercises with my horse Riley and he never really got it. A week of draw reins and a light bulb went off in his head. His response was kind of like, "Wow, this is easier. Why didn't you show me this means of balance earlier." Riley is a goof. Laura is a good young rider and is vey sensitive to a horse's movement. I trust she will find the means to soften this horse's poll and spine in time. My advise is to not hurry. Laura can learn as much from the process she faces as the horse can learn from her. Therefore, both should take the time to get everything out of it as they can. The figure eight nose band, while sometimes useful in intense competition and very necessary for keeping a gag in the correct place in the horse's mount, is not important with a snaffle. This horse must truly accept the bit as and extension of Laura's hands. They must feel one another through the bit and reins as they do through the seat and legs. The horse, I feel, will enjoy the bit-rein connection once he feels the kindness in Laura's hands. Simply said, the old rig the owner has used is expedient. I don't do expedient unless I am on a well trained horses in a serious competition and I want to win. The process of getting to that competition should, in my view, be anything but expedient. We must get competition horses to desire expedient, not be forced by it. Horses can want to win too.
|
|
|
Post by Laura on Nov 17, 2015 1:19:19 GMT
Thanks for the advice on what tack to use on Mac. He is very naturally talented and I think that he will improve a lot from the exercises and the bit that you suggested. He seems to love to learn and wants to please. He tries to do things correctly even when he isn't quite sure what "correct" is. I think that with patience and consistent training, he will improve greatly.
|
|
|
Post by rideanotherday on Nov 17, 2015 14:12:01 GMT
A word about the running martingale. For a rider who's hands are less independent, it can be helpful to ensure the rein aids are coming from consistent positions and is somewhat less confusing to the horse. That said, it also has other applications (lowering the head, preventing it from raising). As with any tool, how it's used determines the outcome. Tools however, should have limits on their usage. Progressing beyond their "need" is my goal.
I'm with Jimmy when it comes to bits. Snaffles are not the end all, be all, but they are a good place to start and sometimes a good place to go back to. Eventually, if you use a stronger bit to "fix" a problem you will run out of a stronger / bigger bit to use. The best "bit" I have found is a "bit" of training. Sometimes the training is for me and not the horse. I'm fortunate enough to have a large group of horsemen to draw information from if I run into issues.
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Nov 17, 2015 18:58:19 GMT
A word about the running martingale. For a rider who's hands are less independent, it can be helpful to ensure the rein aids are coming from consistent positions and is somewhat less confusing to the horse. That said, it also has other applications (lowering the head, preventing it from raising). As with any tool, how it's used determines the outcome. Tools however, should have limits on their usage. A good point, sometimes we use a piece of equipment for the benefit or safety of the horse, as mentioned "it can be helpful to ensure the rein aids are coming from consistent positions". Also as noted, there would ideally be a time limit for the use of such equipment as martingales, etc. I couldn't agree more. Training aids/equipment, I believe, are used to "show" the horse something. If we show them over and over and they don't get the advantage the training tool is supposed to show them, then we need to move on and show them in a different way. The reason we "show" a new or different balance, or anything really, to a horse is to open them to a new way or idea that is more effective, and then they can more easily make it their own by seeing and feeling the advantage of what we have offered. Horses that are forced with equipment or other means to accept a change never truly own the change. They tend to go in and out of using the thing that was imposed. Such inconsistent horses are a pain to ride. You never quite know what they will do the "next time". I sound like an old fogey, but I see fewer and fewer truly trained horses, and more and more horses that have been through a series of short cut training techniques that have been imposed upon them. Many have also been round penned to death, which is another story. What we want is a horse that owns his training. We want to be able to trust that in every circumstance the horse will go to the optimum balance to achieve the goal in the moment. Getting a horse to this level requires trust on the horse's part that what we have shown them will work every time. This takes time and patience. There is no quick or easy way to get a horse to this level.
|
|
|
Post by rideanotherday on Nov 18, 2015 11:50:34 GMT
A word about the running martingale. For a rider who's hands are less independent, it can be helpful to ensure the rein aids are coming from consistent positions and is somewhat less confusing to the horse. That said, it also has other applications (lowering the head, preventing it from raising). As with any tool, how it's used determines the outcome. Tools however, should have limits on their usage. A good point, sometimes we use a piece of equipment for the benefit or safety of the horse, as mentioned "it can be helpful to ensure the rein aids are coming from consistent positions". Also as noted, there would ideally be a time limit for the use of such equipment as martingales, etc. I couldn't agree more. Training aids/equipment, I believe, are used to "show" the horse something. If we show them over and over and they don't get the advantage the training tool is supposed to show them, then we need to move on and show them in a different way. The reason we "show" a new or different balance, or anything really, to a horse is to open them to a new way or idea that is more effective, and then they can more easily make it their own by seeing and feeling the advantage of what we have offered. Horses that are forced with equipment or other means to accept a change never truly own the change. They tend to go in and out of using the thing that was imposed. Such inconsistent horses are a pain to ride. You never quite know what they will do the "next time". I sound like an old fogey, but I see fewer and fewer truly trained horses, and more and more horses that have been through a series of short cut training techniques that have been imposed upon them. Many have also been round penned to death, which is another story. What we want is a horse that owns his training. We want to be able to trust that in every circumstance the horse will go to the optimum balance to achieve the goal in the moment. Getting a horse to this level requires trust on the horse's part that what we have shown them will work every time. This takes time and patience. There is no quick or easy way to get a horse to this level. A riding instructor once told me "fix them up to let them find it". You put the horse in such a position that exhibiting the desired behavior is the easiest thing in the world and then you praise / reward. As exciting as a breakthrough in training is, you need to be careful about "drillling" on a behavior. Excessive repetition seems to make a horse not care if they get something right.
|
|