|
Post by rideanotherday on Dec 15, 2015 17:22:01 GMT
What are the concepts? What specific techniques belong to NH? Does this mean you play the seven games? Does this mean you "Join-up"? Does this mean you ride in a rope halter, or use a "Dually Halter", or use a bitless bridle? Does this mean you don't put shoes on your horse? Jimmy, you nailed the list except maybe for round penning. Do you think round penning is part of Parelli-ing? By the way, I recently was fired by a rider who did almost all of the above with their horse. This client told me that I was mean after I spun their horse when it complained and bucked at lead change cues. I think your client had poor understanding of what you were doing. The sad reality is that the PP methodology really encourages the belief that anything outside of the PP method is mean and that isn't something Pat did, it's his followers. I think that idea that anything else is "mean" stems from the same place as "cupboard love" and why we have more fat horses than we used to. Sure there's more quality food, but less riding to wear that good food off.
|
|
|
Post by jimmy on Dec 15, 2015 20:32:44 GMT
Rideanotherday. Not upset at you at all. In fact, if you knew Par in his bronc days, then we may have met when he was in Clovis, CA. You see, I worked for Pat for two years off and on, and moved with him from Clovis to Clements. I was there when Marlene was a toddler, and when Caton was born. So I know a lot about Pat and how he got started.
Seven games? A clever creation of Pat. A way to package and market. The problem I have is that his followers think these are things he invented. What he has done is dumbed down the things horsemen do every day and categorized them and called them games, so you too can go to Home Depot and do-it-yourself. How clever. The king of do-it-yourself horsemanship. The truth is, in my opinion, there is no group of horse people more intolerable, brain washed, robotic, unapproachable, unteachable, then a group of Parelli enthusiast. If I were Pat, I would be embarrassed by them. Yes people name things. Which is why I do not want to be associated with NH at all. The same way Ray didn't, or Tom or many of their peers.
As far as Pat being a hand, he is no more or less handier than several hundred other people. There are far better hands than he is just working with horses every day. He does know what impresses people, and he is very very good at impressing people. He puts on a good show. I disagree that people got the idea everyone else is mean, for lack of a better way of putting it, wasn't implied by Pat. When you say things like "Love, Language, Leadership versus Mechanics and Fear" that is exactly what you are implying. Some how it's a cross between and EST seminar and Amway. (for those of us old enough to remember EST)
|
|
|
Post by rideanotherday on Dec 15, 2015 20:35:08 GMT
Rideanotherday. Not upset at you at all. In fact, if you knew Par in his bronc days, then we may have met when he was in Clovis, CA. You see, I worked for Pat for two years off and on, and moved with him from Clovis to Clements. I was there when Marlene was a toddler, and when Caton was born. So I know a lot about Pat and how he got started. Seven games? A clever creation of Pat. A way to package and market. The problem I have is that his followers think these are things he invented. What he has done is dumbed down the things horsemen do every day and categorized them and called them games, so you too can go to Home Depot and do-it-yourself. How clever. The king of do-it-yourself horsemanship. The truth is, in my opinion, there is no group of horse people more intolerable, brain washed, robotic, unapproachable, unteachable, then a group of Parelli enthusiast. If I were Pat, I would be embarrassed by them. Yes people name things. Which is why I do not want to be associated with NH at all. The same way Ray didn't, or Tom or many of their peers. Did you know Don Wright?
|
|
|
Post by jimmy on Dec 15, 2015 20:45:25 GMT
Rideanotherday. Not upset at you at all. In fact, if you knew Par in his bronc days, then we may have met when he was in Clovis, CA. You see, I worked for Pat for two years off and on, and moved with him from Clovis to Clements. I was there when Marlene was a toddler, and when Caton was born. So I know a lot about Pat and how he got started. Seven games? A clever creation of Pat. A way to package and market. The problem I have is that his followers think these are things he invented. What he has done is dumbed down the things horsemen do every day and categorized them and called them games, so you too can go to Home Depot and do-it-yourself. How clever. The king of do-it-yourself horsemanship. The truth is, in my opinion, there is no group of horse people more intolerable, brain washed, robotic, unapproachable, unteachable, then a group of Parelli enthusiast. If I were Pat, I would be embarrassed by them. Yes people name things. Which is why I do not want to be associated with NH at all. The same way Ray didn't, or Tom or many of their peers. Did you know Don Wright? Sure. Don still trains in Oakdale, I believe. Cutting horses. Great guy. He used to come out to Pat's place in Clements when Pat first went up there. Pat had a lot of horse trainer friends that were curious about what he was up to. But slowly, they abandoned him. (I edited my post and it double posted somehow)
|
|
|
Post by rideanotherday on Dec 16, 2015 14:38:52 GMT
I know Don and his wife well. They were in my area earlier this year and it was awesome to spend time and hang out.
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Dec 16, 2015 15:00:08 GMT
By the way, I recently was fired by a rider who did almost all of the above with their horse. This client told me that I was mean after I spun their horse when it complained and bucked at lead change cues. I think your client had poor understanding of what you were doing. The sad reality is that the PP methodology really encourages the belief that anything outside of the PP method is mean and that isn't something Pat did, it's his followers. I think that idea that anything else is "mean" stems from the same place as "cupboard love" and why we have more fat horses than we used to. Sure there's more quality food, but less riding to wear that good food off. I am going to go back to my three "kinds of trainers" that you find today. There are the sorters who can sort out the difficult horses and get rid of them, training only the ones that pretty much train themselves. There are the new bullies that use a combination of work-arounds, denial and kind looking coercion, like round penning a horse to death. Parelli would fit there. And there are authentic trainers who have the skill and experience to change a horse so as to improve their movement, attitude and skill.
Authenticity has gone out of fashion. Harbor Freight sells pretend tools. We elect people to govern our country and they pretend to do their job. Students graduate from high school pretending to know how to read. Lots of pretending these days. So when someone hires a horse trainer they pretty must expect pretend. When you actually train a horse today, people don't understand or know what it looks like. In fact, by now there have been generations of pretend horse trainers and the new ones are convinced they are trainers because they were "taught" to train and did their best to learn. Many have been duped.
I met a nice young trainer not long ago in her 20's who had a horse that was "dangerous". I asked her what she did when the horse acted up (reared, etc.) She answered, "nothing". I then asked her how the horse was going to learn that the dangerous behavior was unacceptable, and she told me that she learned to just ignore it and it would go away. She has a good business with horses, is a very nice person but she is misinformed. I told he I wanted to ride her horse to see how it felt. Before she would let me mount him she asked if I had health insurance and made me sign a liability waiver. I said yes and sure, and asked why she was so concerned. She told me no one had ridden that horse and not been tossed off.
While I genuinely appreciated her concern, I could see that she had never encountered a real horse trainer. I got on him and apparently was the first person not to end up on the ground. My point is, if you don't know because you have never been exposed to a real anything, chef, auto mechanic, horse trainer, etc. you cannot know what one is when you meet one. Parelli and other have caught the wave of pretending and rode it very well all the way to the bank. When challenged, they need a reply and "mean" is the best one that can think of.
This is not true everywhere. My measure is international competition. When I was a young person we were consistently in the top 5 and usually in the medals in the Olympics and other international competition. Now we struggle to stay in the top 10. We as an equestrian nation are sinking. We send pretend riders on pretend horses to competition, while the other countries send real. I know it is mean to say that but it is true. I am hopeful that we will cultivate young talented riders and we will regain our former real status in the world of equestrian competition, but we might need at times to be mean to get there. In other words, when I get fired for being mean, I explain that I am part of a come back movement to make mean popular again.
|
|
|
Post by rideanotherday on Dec 16, 2015 15:25:45 GMT
I knew an old trainer who said ( a few times) "you can expect no better than you allow". Usually, hard on the heels of that statement would be "sometimes you have the find the price a horse is unwilling to pay to make a change". Unfortunately, a human usually got the horse into a situation where they learned they were bigger, stronger and didn't really have to if they didn't want to.
I won't be "mean" to a horse, but I sure won't be abused by one either. I may not be rider or trainer enough for some horses, but I'm at a point where all I'm going to be throwing a leg over is going to be some dead headed lesson horse unless I get really lucky.
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Dec 16, 2015 17:02:08 GMT
Unfortunately, a human usually got the horse into a situation where they learned they were bigger, stronger and didn't really have to if they didn't want to. That's the thing. Horses learn to get ahead of humans and then they learn to train humans. People essentially teach horses how to out "fight" them. I mentioned that horse Magnum. By the time I got rid of him I felt I knew his original horse trainer very well. That trainer really made an efficient unrelenting fighter out of him. I could feel the trainer's impatience, stubborn unconsciousness and a whole lot more come through that horse. Magnum by then acted more like a human than a horse in many ways. I would make just a tiny bit of progress with him and then I'd back off to show him I was pleased and we could share a moment of relief and relaxation. But that horse took those openings to pour on aggressive dominance. I thought the horse had a screw loose at first. I have had several neurologically challenged horses, but they are typically impulsively unpredictable. This guy was deliberate and steady in his behavior. I have always told aspiring trainers, never teach a horse to fight with you. We sometimes need to make clear demanding corrections but we need to do that in a non combative way. Sure, I have lost my temper at times, but I always regretted it and by the time I got older it happened less and less. I think the biggest flaw in what they call natural horsemanship is there is little or no clear correction, and that encourages a horse to fill the void created by that kind of lack of leadership. You have to be the leader. I had another woman tell me I was mean to horses years ago and I asked her is she would be OK going out on a dark winter night on icy ground into a herd horses with a bucket of grain to feed them. She knew enough about horses to say no. I told her I do it every night. And that's not because I am brave or mean or anything. It's because the horses have the right relationship with humans and what she would call mean is how they got there.
|
|
|
Post by jimmy on Dec 16, 2015 18:10:37 GMT
|
|
|
Post by rideanotherday on Dec 17, 2015 11:56:31 GMT
So, what we should really be doing is training people as much as we do horses...if not more so.
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Dec 17, 2015 16:06:04 GMT
So, what we should really be doing is training people as much as we do horses...if not more so.
I agree. One of the things I like least about the PP method is his "horsenalities". That idea gives people an out with regard to looking at themselves and what they bring to a horse. It invites anthropomorphic projections from people and a very mental approach to horses. Horses are horses. Maybe after many years the distinction of types becomes important but not for a while and after lots of experience. When I become a BNT I plan to steal Ted Williams' great saying as the HG method motto:
"If you don't think too good, don't think too much"
|
|
|
Post by horseguy on Dec 17, 2015 17:13:32 GMT
I went to Randy Byers' website, read this article and more. I like him. Does anyone know where he is in terms of the current natural horsemanship movement? Is he main stream, and outlier? Whatever he is, he makes sense and I began to wonder if the nh pendulum is beginning to swing to the middle.
|
|
|
Post by jimmy on Dec 18, 2015 4:31:57 GMT
I went to Randy Byers' website, read this article and more. I like him. Does anyone know where he is in terms of the current natural horsemanship movement? Is he main stream, and outlier? Whatever he is, he makes sense and I began to wonder if the nh pendulum is beginning to swing to the middle. Randy is into working equitation. I don't now him personally. I would call him an "outlier" more than mainstream. But he takes WE seriously.
|
|