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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 10, 2015 20:47:23 GMT
I put it in quotes because, really? The only thing natural for horses is eating and sleeping.
So, we have the Big Name Trainers: Pat P., Clinton Anderson, Chris Cox, Monty Roberts et al.
Pat is quite the marketer and charismatic and a horseman in his own right. It's not entirely his fault that people can't reproduce his performance.
Clinton is one of the biggest bullies I have ever met or seen when it comes to horse riding. The man can put together a ride though. I have to give him credit for that at least. I watched him show at Paso Robles at the Reined Cowhorse Futurity. He's definitely a showman and has the benefit of some really well bred horses.
Chris Cox is less of a bully and one of the few BNTs that teaches horsemanship and riding skills. It's not so much about colt training, though he does put on clinics for that as well. He shows in cutting horse events and makes it to Ft. Worth. I actually like watching himwork.
Monty Roberts. I don't care for him. I consider him a horse chaser and a bully.
I'm sure with a little thought I can come up with some others, but those are the ones that come up right off the bat.
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Post by rideforever on Dec 10, 2015 21:30:35 GMT
Big Name Trainers = Equine Evangelists.
You need this halter : with my name on it. (Add $60 for name)
This lead rope, this bridle etc
If it doesn't have my name on it, you can't possibly follow my program and train your own horse
But buy everything I sell, and you can train any horse. You don't need any trainer (except ME)
Hell, the ER trip will be cheaper than all the high priced crap you have to buy.
Which isn't to say that I think people shouldn't learn to work with their own horses; they should. But work with someone who isn't out to take your whole paycheck, and will give you good, timely feedback
However, not everyone should be a trainer. Ground work is a means to an end (riding) and not the end of the road
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Post by horseguy on Dec 11, 2015 13:28:00 GMT
Which isn't to say that I think people shouldn't learn to work with their own horses; they should. But work with someone who isn't out to take your whole paycheck, and will give you good, timely feedback Good timely feedback doesn't come from a cookbook. There are usually two ears on a corn plant and about 500 kernels on an ear, or 1,000 kernels per plant. If you plant one kernel of corn, you typically harvest 1,000 kernels. With onions, you plant one set and you get one onion. A very wise man once told me that training horses and teaching riders is a lot more like planting onions than planting corn. The whole Big Name Trainer thing with EXPOS and DVDs is like planting corn. It doesn't work. |
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Post by rideforever on Dec 11, 2015 22:15:54 GMT
I never saw a DVD step in an arena and tell you when your horse needs you to release pressure
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Post by jimmy on Dec 12, 2015 2:26:55 GMT
If you take an in depth look at the NH movement, you will see it's claims are largely unchallenged. There is no auditing of results.
Pick the slogans of Pat Parelli, for one.
I take issue with most of his statements.
for instance
"The horse is a natural born claustrophobic"
and
" The horse is a prey animal"
It is interesting to point out, that if you look at one definition of a prey animal, the are usually small animals the burrow for protection against predators.
So I see these two statement at odds with one another. A prey animal should have no problem hiding in small places.
Monty Roberts takes this further, by stating we look like mountain lion to the horse.
Again, a population seeing him as an expert, embraces this idea.
Does the idea of "horseanalaties" really improve the understanding of a horse?
Is this really even a study.
No, it's just stuff a guy made up who happens to have an audience.
Does reducing age old gymnastic work and understanding to "games" do anything but devolve horsemanship, rather than elevate it?
I sure don't think so.
Then you have Dr. Robert M. Miller, creator of "imprint training", treat NH as the second enlightenment of horsemanship.
Again. Not.
In my opinion...
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Post by horseguy on Dec 12, 2015 14:19:28 GMT
I like this forum. On every other internet forum I have been on the majority of posts on any topic remotely about Natural Horsemanship are pro Parelli, pro BNT. Here we all agree... so far. I can't complain. But oddly, I feel an impulse to post something positive about it. Maybe it is some kind of journalist balance impulse. I don't know. Here goes. I think if there was a study done about back yard horses versus horses living in an environment where they get more professional effective observation and training, most horses in America would fall into the back yard horse category. Furthermore, of the back yard horses, I believe some would be in the back yard of a competent, skilled, near professional trainer and some would be in the back yards of clueless but loving owners. Which of those two categories do you think is the biggest? I'd guess clueless. So, if someone lives out in the country somewhere and really doesn't have much formal training or skills with horses and buys a horse for their back yard, what do they have to help them improve their horse? Pre-internet they had books or VHS tapes on training, clinics, and maybe a gal or guy down the road that knew something about training a horse. Not that much really, and then along came Pat Parelli. I bought his book last year so I could see if he is completely full of it or not. I think the book is pretty good actually. But then he started going to HORSE EXPOS, whoa. OK, back to positive. Back yard horse owners need help. Theoretically, a cookbook that is simple to follow and gets some results, however meager, is a good thing, theoretically. So, I will put Pat Parelli, along with George Morris for his crest release, in my It Seemed Like a Good Ideal At the Time Hall of Fame. John Lyons seems to have fallen out of favor, but I like his quote, "There is nothing natural about riding a horse" but horses do have natures. I think in time we will see and American system of horse training. To be wildly optimistic, I hope by then we have a USEF more focused on quality and they will adopt this future, yet-to-be-determined sensible American system that is based in the nature of the horse. I am thinking Ray Hunt, who I am learning about recently, will be a big contributor, Harry Chamberlin, Vladimir Littauer would be included too, I feel. I have yet to explore Tom Dorrance, and if he is anything like Ray Hunt, he'll have a contribution. Buck Brannaman too. I think we are just too early in the process. Parelli's place is yet to be determined. He might get credit for defining the space but not putting that much into it after the first book. Too soon to tell. Wow, I did it, a positive post on Natural Horsemanship.  |
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 14, 2015 13:15:06 GMT
There's quite a bit of positive about "natural horsemanship". That movement has gotten people more involved in having a relationship with their horse and encouraged people to find "more" to riding than just getting on and yanking the reins around. It has offered up a softer way. I think that we can all benefit from that concept.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 14, 2015 15:54:15 GMT
There's quite a bit of positive about "natural horsemanship". That movement has gotten people more involved in having a relationship with their horse and encouraged people to find "more" to riding than just getting on and yanking the reins around. It has offered up a softer way. I think that we can all benefit from that concept. Natural horsemanship, "has gotten people more involved in having a relationship with their horse." Yes, but maybe that's like saying co-dependence is better than no relationship at all.  There has definitely been a cultural trade-off. Heaven knows that before this "movement" so many people saddle up their horses on the weekends, took off for parts unknown, ran the hell out of them and ended the day by "putting them up wet" and forgetting about them. The horses were sore the next day and their coats were matted by dried sweat. Then the next weekend came, and off they went again. Owning a horse was a lot like owning a motorcycle. Enter Pat P. and the once six day a week abandoned horse could now look forward to hours of weekday after work mind torture in some version of a round pen in-between weekend wild canters up every hill. My guess is many, if not most, of those horses were happier being run sore once a week by someone on their back popping a beer tab at the end of the joyride and then being forgotten again for a week. I guess I am saying, natural horsemanship has not truly moved the needle much in the direction of better horsemanship. Sure there are exceptions, but the only real winners have been the BNT's bank accounts. I'm idealistic enough to think that someone will eventually be able and willing to "mass market" something that will elevate the national standard of horsemanship in America. We can hope. |
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Post by jimmy on Dec 14, 2015 15:58:12 GMT
There's quite a bit of positive about "natural horsemanship". That movement has gotten people more involved in having a relationship with their horse and encouraged people to find "more" to riding than just getting on and yanking the reins around. It has offered up a softer way. I think that we can all benefit from that concept. Your statement hints at the equine world view of the "natural horsemanship" crowd that I find two dimensional. In other words, before NH, it was "getting on and yanking the reins around" That is hardly the case. In fact, before NH, there was a vast history of great horsemanship throughout the world.. But those people are not the target of the NH craze. The target was the crowd yanking their horse's around. Except that that crowd doesn't seem to know who they are. Instead, they think they have been empowered by some special knowledge that no one before them, or before their chosen favorite clinician,, has ever discovered before. For the most part, I find that crowd intolerable neophytes finger painting in kindergarten, while believing they have attained a university degree. There is another problem with NH, and that is the perception of what it is. Last night at a Christmas party,I met a German woman heavily involved in dressage, jumping, and breeding warmbloods. She had heard I was some kind of local horse whisperer, which made me laugh out loud. She had heard I had spent a little time with Ray Hunt, and followed his "methods". She said she thought it was a good way to work with a horse, and had a similar person working at her stable, who was taught by Monty Roberts. She went on to say how wonderful Monty was, and how popular he is in Europe, and that those people really needed him, rather than all the muscling horses that was so prevalent. That natural horsemanship was sure a good thing. But she equated Ray Hunt with Monty Roberts, as if they were the same, and used the same "methods". Except that nothing is further from the truth. I failed to find a way to explain to her that Monty and Ray were worlds apart. But in her mind, they were the same thing, which is NH. I don't get that. |
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Post by horseguy on Dec 14, 2015 17:35:48 GMT
... she equated Ray Hunt with Monty Roberts, as if they were the same, and used the same "methods". Except that nothing is further from the truth. I failed to find a way to explain to her that Monty and Ray were worlds apart. But in her mind, they were the same thing, which is NH. I don't get that.
People pretend they are getting quality. It feels good. Instead of doing the work of researching and analyzing meaningful distinctions, they find satisfaction in superficial similarities that cause them to believe they are getting value. And like you say Jimmy, they are like kindergarteners playing with finger paints when they go down this bargain road. Natural horsemanship reminds me of Harbor Freight, the Chinese import tool seller. The company is based in selling facsimile tools that look like quality tools. They even name their tools with phony "brands" like Chicago, which is a US city like Milwaukee is a US city and the name of a really good tool maker.  Harbor Freight saw $57  Milwaukee saw $242 You can put a saw blade in both saws and the blades go back and forth. Do they cut the same, last as long, or are they similar in any other ways except that they are both red? No. They effectively have nothing in common. I suspect that harbor Freight sells more of the cheap worthless saws to the average person than Milwaukee, but I do know that people who truly understand from experience that they need a good tool buy the one that costs nearly 5 times as much. Natural horsemanship is like that. It's relatively cheap compared to hiring a very effective horse trainer, it feels good to get a bargain but in the end one is useful and one is not. |
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Post by jimmy on Dec 14, 2015 21:12:45 GMT
Natural Horsemanship: The Harbor Freight of the horse industry.
I like that!
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 15, 2015 11:45:51 GMT
I apply concepts of natural horsemanship to my training, because horses I've worked with have responded well to them. I don't know that I'd go so far as to throw the concepts of NH completely out the window. I think where people find difficulty is in believing that the $100 video will make them a better rider. It's a failing of humans to want the easy route. Horsemanship as a journey is anything but easy. Stopping with a video or just one or 2 clinics isn't going far enough.
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Post by jimmy on Dec 15, 2015 15:47:27 GMT
I apply concepts of natural horsemanship to my training, because horses I've worked with have responded well to them. I don't know that I'd go so far as to throw the concepts of NH completely out the window. I think where people find difficulty is in believing that the $100 video will make them a better rider. It's a failing of humans to want the easy route. Horsemanship as a journey is anything but easy. Stopping with a video or just one or 2 clinics isn't going far enough. What are the concepts? What specific techniques belong to NH? Does this mean you play the seven games? Does this mean you "Join-up"? Does this mean you ride in a rope halter, or use a "Dually Halter", or use a bitless bridle? Does this mean you don't put shoes on your horse? Like I mentioned earlier. Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Buck Brannaman, did and do reject the label to describe what they do, yet the public continues to put this label on them. They call Tom the "father of natural horsemanship". I isn't right. To be specific, it was Pat Parelli who originally coined the phrase. Now, Parelli is gone from a noun to a verb. "I do Parelli". Not me. |
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Post by horseguy on Dec 15, 2015 16:32:02 GMT
What are the concepts? What specific techniques belong to NH? Does this mean you play the seven games? Does this mean you "Join-up"? Does this mean you ride in a rope halter, or use a "Dually Halter", or use a bitless bridle? Does this mean you don't put shoes on your horse? Jimmy, you nailed the list except maybe for round penning. Do you think round penning is part of Parelli-ing? By the way, I recently was fired by a rider who did almost all of the above with their horse. This client told me that I was mean after I spun their horse when it complained and bucked at lead change cues.  |
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 15, 2015 17:17:29 GMT
I apply concepts of natural horsemanship to my training, because horses I've worked with have responded well to them. I don't know that I'd go so far as to throw the concepts of NH completely out the window. I think where people find difficulty is in believing that the $100 video will make them a better rider. It's a failing of humans to want the easy route. Horsemanship as a journey is anything but easy. Stopping with a video or just one or 2 clinics isn't going far enough. What are the concepts? What specific techniques belong to NH? Does this mean you play the seven games? Does this mean you "Join-up"? Does this mean you ride in a rope halter, or use a "Dually Halter", or use a bitless bridle? Does this mean you don't put shoes on your horse? Like I mentioned earlier. Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Buck Brannaman, did and do reject the label to describe what they do, yet the public continues to put this label on them. They call Tom the "father of natural horsemanship". I isn't right. To be specific, it was Pat Parelli who originally coined the phrase. Now, Parelli is gone from a noun to a verb. "I do Parelli". Not me. ************** I use body language more often than I speak to horses. I use intensity and focus. I'll use a round pen if one is available, but I'm not above a square pen if that's all that's available. I try to "read" the horse as best I can being a human. I use a rope halter and I like the feel it gives me, I've ridden using one rather than a bridle. I don't mind a web or leather halter if that's what I have available. I'm not really a snob like that. I have to laugh a little bit about the comment about shoes. I've hot forged my own and nailed on some. I'm not a farrier beyond the fact that I can trim my own and have for a few friends. Jimmy, people put labels on things. That doesn't make anything inherently bad. Quite frankly, you seem a bit upset over it and there's no reason to be, and certainly no reason to get upset at me. I'll use whatever skills I can pick up and use effectively. I've met Pat and I've had the luck to ride with some of his contemporaries (from back when Pat was a bronc rider). I may not have much use for people who try to use his method, but the man himself is a hand with a horse. He's also a good businessman and marketer. Do I use the 7 games...yes, but I don't use the names for them. And Jimmy, so do you if you think about it. The friendly game - ever pet and rub on a horse Jimmy? You're building a relationship with the horse. The porcupine game - every poke or shove a horse away from you? You are teaching him to respect your space. The driving game - sending a horse out...sound familiar yet? The yo-yo game (ok, the names kill me)...send a horse out and bring him back. The circling game is the same as longing, but you've never done that Jimmy? The sideways game, I guess you've never asked a horse to sidepass. The squeeze game...well, loading a horse or asking him to go into a stall...no one ever does that either? Pat did a good job of making some everyday things sound a bit more fun by slapping the word "game" on the end of something. So what? They are skills we all use and it's silly to say we don't. |
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