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Post by horseguy on Dec 14, 2015 20:14:47 GMT
I want to diverge from the context of natural horsemanship with a content technique post from that method.
My first real paying horse training job was lunging 2 year olds in a round pen back in the early 1970's. The facility trainer was kind of avant guard and believed in round penning. There were about 40 mares on the place and three studs. Every year there was a crop of 40 foals, and by the time a crop was 2 years old, there were around 38 horses to lunge.
I and one other young "assistant" trainer lunged 8 to 10 horses a day. So about half the 2 year olds got lunged every other day. I was taught to teach them to lead back and forth to the round pen and to learn the voice commands of walk, trot, canter, (each to the left and to the right) whoa, stand and back. Rain or shine, I lunged a bunch of horses every day for a couple years. It was then I decided that unrelenting lunging was cruel and unusual punishment for the majority of horses. Some of the horses simply loved it. I didn't like those horses much.
I began to see lunging as a form of soft bullying as the resistance in the spunky ones took form and solidified. It began to feel to me like I was putting them through a forced squeezing pressurized process, like you would put frosting through a pastry bag.
It looked kind and nice, but some of the horses got it that it was bullying and they wanted more. I felt they wanted to be trained in a way that their individuality would be brought forth. I felt they didn't like being uniformly squeezed through the very specific opening at the end of the bag.
I was told my work made them saleable, and when perspective buyer came to look, I was often asked to take the young horses the buyers liked to the round pen and show them off. A lot of horses got sold there.
After that experience, I always lunged prospects some, but not as a principle means of training. I feel it is important to teach a young horse to lunge for later in their life when they might become lame and need lunging as part of diagnostics and rehab. As the years went on I felt more and more that the way to train a riding horse was to get on them and ride. |
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 15, 2015 11:50:17 GMT
I've left horses stand tied with a saddle on for hours. That gets them over a lot. Sometimes I think that it's the standing tied for hours part that teaches them patience that really helps.
Round penning, longing etc is a skill the horse needs. It can help with fitness and (at least how I use it) is to give them some points of reference for when I get on. They will know words (whoa) and smooches and kiss noises and clucks ...and that they all mean different things as well as how ropes feel and that what I do should mean something to them. I like ground driving better than longing after a certain point, because it gives the horse some "feel" of what reins will later in their life.
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Post by jlynn on Dec 15, 2015 12:51:36 GMT
In college I worked at a small farm that raised race horses. The guy had six mares and my job was to halter break the weanlings and get the yearlings ready for the sales. I was expected to do the same thing you did, HG and I'm pretty certain I taught a fair share of them to hate it - By the time I left, I ponied them more than I lounged them.
I think there is a difference between the round pen and the lounge line - but if all you are doing is chasing the horse in circles to get him fit, or tire him out they both will get the job done.
We're currently clearing a patch of brush and rock for a round pen - not for the horse, but for the 10 year old boy who is learning to ride and needs a little containment.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 15, 2015 15:40:06 GMT
I've left horses stand tied with a saddle on for hours. That gets them over a lot. Sometimes I think that it's the standing tied for hours part that teaches them patience that really helps. Round penning, longing etc is a skill the horse needs. It can help with fitness and (at least how I use it) is to give them some points of reference for when I get on. They will know words (whoa) and smooches and kiss noises and clucks ...and that they all mean different things as well as how ropes feel and that what I do should mean something to them. I like ground driving better than longing after a certain point, because it gives the horse some "feel" of what reins will later in their life.
I am a big fan of tying a horse that doesn't like to be tied. I typically find a soft spot to tie them with a solid tie post. I put two halters on them and a heavy duty lead snapped through both halter rings under the chin. This prevents broken halters and horses flipping over backward. I like to tie them in a place with a lot of activity like a training pen or a riding arena. The activity lets them know "life goes on". They can pull and complain but the work of the farm continues. If you use this technique, it is important that the lead be tied high and short, so it the horse does go down they can easily get back up. Make sure there is no fence, gate or anything that the horse's legs can slide under if they go down. Not many will go down but sometimes they do, and it is a good lesson for them to learn that they must keep their balance. Some will pull every time someone walks by or something changes, but I let them pull until they are convinced that in the end they will be there tied as before.
For me there is no work-around for a horse that doesn't like to be tied. For example, a polo horse shows up at the field for a 3 o'clock game around 1:30PM, gets unloaded and stands for grooming and gets loosened up a little and ready for the game. They will play a period or two and return to the trailer to be tied. The game ends after 4PM, there is an after party and when it ends they get loaded up to go home, sometimes after dark. Total tying time might be eight hours, but that is like a trail horse that gets tied overnight. A good horse ties. Still we see people showing up for a fox hunt or a show and their horse must be confined in the trailer, that can be an oven on a hot day, because they "won't tie". The owners think they are being accommodating to the horse by putting them in the trailer but they are very often torturing them.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 15, 2015 16:00:51 GMT
In college I worked at a small farm that raised race horses. The guy had six mares and my job was to halter break the weanlings and get the yearlings ready for the sales. I was expected to do the same thing you did, HG and I'm pretty certain I taught a fair share of them to hate it - By the time I left, I ponied them more than I lounged them. I think there is a difference between the round pen and the lounge line - but if all you are doing is chasing the horse in circles to get him fit, or tire him out they both will get the job done. We're currently clearing a patch of brush and rock for a round pen - not for the horse, but for the 10 year old boy who is learning to ride and needs a little containment. I have always built a round pen on every farm I have had. As you say, they are great for teaching young riders to ride independently. If a kid has a decent seat and the horse he/she is on begins to canter, there is a limit to how fast the horse can go. If that happens I tell the kids to relax and ride. This is after I have ponied them in the round pen. I also like to ride a "bronc" in training in a round pen for the same reasons. If a horse is going to act up, I like there to be no corners or straightaways for them to use to do something stupid. Having built a number of round pens, I'm on version 6.0 at least. I have found that if I build them on a very gentle, almost imperceptible slope, they drain and don't get puddles. In my first job I round penned rain or shine and stood in water many days watching horses slip and slide in puddles. Not good. I also have decided that I like plastic mesh fence on metal "T" post round pens the best. (You can see one on a video I posted here somewhere.) I put heavy plastic caps on the "T" posts with some dense foam between the post top and the plastic cap. Then I use zip ties to attach the plastic web fencing to the "T" posts to make the pen. There is a heavier plastic web fencing you can buy that is much sturdier than the orange Home Depot constructiontype mesh plastic fencing.  The reason I like the "T" post and plastic mesh fence round pen is because I have been tossed into metal and wood fenced round pens and the "T" post and plastic mesh fence feels the best when you hit it. Plus, you can straighten it if it bends while absorbing the energy of your fall. I have found horses cannot get out of it, even if it is damaged by an accident, and that it does not damage horses in training, something clients appreciate. |
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 15, 2015 17:26:50 GMT
 One too many panels like this Horseguy? Sometimes when they decide out is the only direction they want to go it ends up looking like this. (The horse was ok, by the way - just a bit of hair rubbed off). |
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Post by horseguy on Dec 15, 2015 17:49:17 GMT
Been there, done that. It always amazes me that people will buy a steel tubing round pen. They hurt.
Here is a picture of my most recent round pen. You can see a "T" post at the left edge with a plastic TSC post top. There is also a 3/4 " yellow electrified tape along the top all the ay around I learned to put 1 1/2" square pieces of high density foam in between the top of the "T" posts and the plastic caps after I once shattered a plastic post cap. It looks like the fence is low, but the horse is huge, 17.2 H if I remember correctly. This design is safe for horses, safe for me.
This is a full Percheron mare someone sent me for training. 90 days and a few pairs of pants ripped at the crotch from the barrel width of the mare, this horse could be ridden well and jump a little. She went off to a sort of eastern "dude ranch" kind of place after training and apparently did well, giving the owners a wider range of client they could serve, if you know what I mean. 
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 15, 2015 17:55:41 GMT
Ahhhhhhhhhhh I love riding drafties!!! They are so fun. It's kinda like riding a sofa though.
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Post by jlynn on Dec 16, 2015 12:08:12 GMT
I was married to a vet once upon a time and saw a horse that came down on a T-post - granted it didn't have much of a cap on it, just one of those three sided white plastic jobs - but it gave me an aversion to using them. HG, you pony the kids in the roundpen?
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Post by horseguy on Dec 16, 2015 12:45:24 GMT
I was married to a vet once upon a time and saw a horse that came down on a T-post - granted it didn't have much of a cap on it, just one of those three sided white plastic jobs - but it gave me an aversion to using them. HG, you pony the kids in the roundpen? "T" post can be dangerous, but technology has improved and the TSC yellow plastic caps do work. I have come down on them and cracked them but the caps and the bending of the post prevented injury. (They really stay on if you whack them good when you install them) But I did learn to put little squares of high density foam on the top of the posts before I pressed the caps on the posts and I have had no cap cracking problems since. What is good about the "T" posts is they bend backward as you hit them. They give, where a wood post does not. Plus, with the plastic mesh fence, if a horse tries to go through it is like they get caught in a fish net. The mesh freaks the out in a gentler way than a pipe round pen (rideanotherday's picture tells that story) and they back up in my experience. We did have one horse get caught in it and did a fantastic leap from a dead stop over the whole thing, but there was no injury. Bottom line, if I am coming off a horse in a round pen, metal tube fence is my last choice to hit, wood my second last and the mesh/"T" post set up my favorite of the three. Yes, I do pony horses in the round pen and I do pony young riders on a horse or pony in there too. I am on the inside and they are against the fence. I like the consistency of the circle and I can let the kids feel a bouncy trot and the smooth feel of a canter so later if a horse happens to trot or canter they are not shocked or scared. I have found that most kids giggle when you pony them in faster gaits. I like that I am right there close to them. I have even used round pen ponying with advanced students who are afraid of a horse. I will lean right up against them and their horse and it seems to comfort all concerned. |
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 16, 2015 14:32:03 GMT
At least with the metal tubing of round pen panels, as they crush the forces are distributed. I've been lucky enough that the worst a horse has ever done is lost some hair from round pen panels.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 16, 2015 15:03:36 GMT
At least with the metal tubing of round pen panels, as they crush the forces are distributed. I've been lucky enough that the worst a horse has ever done is lost some hair from round pen panels. Years ago I had a neighbor call me to help him. When I got there his nice mare was stuck in a tube panel. She had to be put down. |
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Post by Jlynn on Dec 17, 2015 20:36:34 GMT
I've never had a metal round pen, although I've seen the results. I was going to use RR ties and oak boards, but now I'm rethinking the boards. When we fenced the property, we bought Ramm flex fence. I have some of that left over, probably enough for 4 rails but I'm not sure I could string it tight enough for a round pen.... On the other hand, maybe I am just overthinking it - I'm starting a boy, not a colt.
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