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Post by horseguy on Dec 29, 2015 0:20:23 GMT
Hunter/Jumper riders are the majority of American "English" riders. Based on some principle of so many people can't be wrong, you/they believe they have learned an legitimate and authentic way to ride a horse. Most of you/them do not know the history of how in the 1970's one popular and famous rider, George Morris, made up a whole different set of rules, edited out important principles of riding and in doing so created the most flawed method of riding in history, American Hunter/Jumpers.
My intention is not to make people feel stupid or in any way bad about their Hunter/Jumper training. My intention is to provide a way out of the predicament learning that method creates. You believe you have learned to ride a horse, and you have not. I'm just the messenger.
In this thread I am asking people to comment on and discuss their "English" riding instruction in America (and in parts of eastern Canada that Morris infected). My offer is to put your experience in context so that you can move on to a more effective way to ride. I am not going to blame anyone except George Morris, because in the 1960's before scientific evidence overwhelmingly proved that smoking cigarettes was very harmful to health, I smoked. And then, after all kinds of counter claims and BS studies and advertizing by the tobacco industry, I realized as a young father that the right thing to do was quit smoking. I didn't know, and then I did. It's like that.
On a positive note, some Hunter/Jumper riders have experienced unity with their horses, which allowed them to learn, not from Morris or his followers, but from the horse. That part of your experience is valid and useful. I hope we can sort some of this out here and people can move forward to gain greater confidence and understanding in how they ride.
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Post by Laura on Dec 29, 2015 1:27:16 GMT
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 29, 2015 12:29:20 GMT
I can't really classify myself as an English rider at all. I took Balanced Seat as a college level riding class and it involved principles of dressage and some small amount of jumping. I learned that I hadn't started jumping early enough in life to really enjoy it, especially in the indoor that we jumped in. I truly enjoyed the horsemanship / dressage portion of the class. It made sense of things and gave me the theory and the "why" we do what we do. George Morris wasn't ever mentioned in that class. We had to read Riding Logic by Wilhelm Muessler as part of the curriculum. It's a book I have (again) in my library. Some of Wilhelm's information does not really have a scientific understanding of anatomy and physiology, but the overall message and information is excellent.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 29, 2015 13:20:34 GMT
I took Balanced Seat as a college level riding class and it involved principles of dressage and some small amount of jumping... George Morris wasn't ever mentioned in that class. Balanced Seat was a term that began to be used in the 1930's. It came out of the Caprilli Forward Seat movement, which in the military was the basis for all the variations each nation's cavalry school evolved and adopted as their military seat. Our American version was the Fort Riley Seat. I'd be curious to know what year you took this course, where and as much as you might remember of the instructor. The fact that Muessler was part of the required reading would indicate that the instructor was an authentic Balanced Seat instructor. Many were/are not. Places like Wilson College in Pennsylvania hired Col. Kitts to revamp their riding programs post-Morris to bring back higher standards. I am not surprised that Morris was not mentioned. He started all the nonsense and then Hunter/Jumpers took on a life of its own. Like the peanut roller western horses that got popular based on "if low head is good, lower is better", the crest release got weirder and weirder probably based on "if leaning on the neck is good, more and lower leaning is better". As undermining as Morris' ideas were, his followers managed to take Hunter/Jumpers to greater depths of irrationality. contemporary crest release - hands, wrists, arms, elbows, chin on crest, feet behind girth and behind vertical
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 29, 2015 13:33:22 GMT
The instructor was Dr. Peter Rayne. The class was offered (and still is) at the University of Wisconsin at River Falls in River Falls, WI. The instructor is a vet as well as horseman. Horrible at lecture but MUCH better in the practical portion. In lecture we went over a lot of the different effects of cues and equipment. During lab/practical, we rode and worked our way through dressage tests and over low fence patterns. I think I took that class in 2003. It was one semester's worth of riding but well worth it I thought. After that class I went to Advanced Western Riding, which was reining taught by Larry Kasten. I learned a lot in both classes. The next class in the series would have been the colt training class, but with my required classes and a daughter, I just couldn't make it work. Larry told me when I graduated he was sad I didn't take the colts class as he thought I would have done well. He didn't give compliments often.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 29, 2015 13:54:17 GMT
I googled Peter Rayne. He is a United States Pony Clubs (USPC) National Examiner and a graduate "A" Pony Clubber. He looks to be in his 40's based on his University faculty picture (some are pretty old pictures, so he could be older). That would put him in Pony Club in the 1990's, which is soon after the USPC separated from the British Horse Society. Pony Clubs, being of the British Horse Society, rejected Morris' "innovations" and continued to teach the traditional Military/Balanced Seat method until local Club by local Club many, if not most, fell to pressure to offer the more American show seat Morris type method.
Being a "A" Pony Club graduate at that time, he would be a very qualified instructor of the Balanced Seat. I would say you were fortunate to encounter him and take his class. According to Google, he still teaches at the University and he teaches Pony Club too, which means he is carrying on the old British tradition. When my kids were young in the 1980's I did the same. I find it amazing how small "islands' of the traditional method have survived. Some through stubborn old men (like me) and women, through Pony Clubs and through European (non-dressage specialists) riders who come to America and teach. Good instructors are out there.
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 29, 2015 14:24:03 GMT
Dr. Rayne is probably touching his 50s. It definitely helped shape me as a rider. Next month I can ride/run/etc again...or at least start to. I'm going to see if I can find a place that would do 15 min sessions at a trot on the longe so I can build my leg back.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 30, 2015 13:02:20 GMT
I am glad you feel Peter Rayne was an effective instructor. Effectiveness is the main word to describe the Military/Balanced Seat. I am also glad you can get back on a horse soon. I have come back from injuries a number of times. It is never easy, having been away, but it all comes back. Many years ago an orthopedic surgeon said I'd never ride again after a bad accident that hurt my back and ended my polo career. I sat on a horse 6 months later and walked around. Then I rode a gaited horse for about 6 months. There is always a way. It's about surrounding injuries with muscle.
I am a little surprised that there are nearly 60 page views on this topic and so few comments. I am not sure if we are getting a lot of western riders so it does not apply, or people just don't want to discuss it. Some feedback from guests would be most welcome.
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 30, 2015 13:17:40 GMT
I am glad you feel Peter Rayne was an effective instructor. Effectiveness is the main word to describe the Military/Balanced Seat. I am also glad you can get back on a horse soon. I have come back from injuries a number of times. It is never easy, having been away, but it all comes back. Many years ago an orthopedic surgeon said I'd never ride again after a bad accident that hurt my back and ended my polo career. I sat on a horse 6 months later and walked around. Then I rode a gaited horse for about 6 months. There is always a way. It's about surrounding injuries with muscle. I am a little surprised that there are nearly 60 page views on this topic and so few comments. I am not sure if we are getting a lot of western riders so it does not apply, or people just don't want to discuss it. Some feedback from guests would be most welcome. Balanced seat DOES apply to western riding, especially to performance disciplines like reining, cow work etc. You have to be able to maintain yourself and move your horse appropriately to be successful. Often, western riders don't know what its called, but it absolutely does apply. I have the benefit of both sides of the coin, so to speak. Terminology catches people and makes it difficult to see the application on occasion.
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Post by rideanotherday on Dec 30, 2015 13:34:45 GMT
linkThis video shows a jumper riding a reining horse and a reining rider jumping. Let's see some discussion on who is able to transfer better.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 30, 2015 13:47:13 GMT
Barbara might not like this "condensed history" but basically the evolution of the US Military Seat/Fort Riley Seat started in the Revolutionary War and ran through the Civil War as a British seat with British regimental training. After Caprilli, circa 1904, the Forward Seat changed all that. Then WW1 was eminent and the US Army was concerned about training rider/soldiers and asked France, our old ally, for riding/training manuals. Those manuals were received and Fort Riley, being geographically central in the US, was selected as our Mounted Services School and the regimental training system was essentially transformed to a more central system. The next big change was Harry Chamberlin rewriting those French Manuals in the 1920's. And here is the western connection. By the end of WW1 the US Cavalry was pretty diverse. There were western riders, eastern riders and men who hadn't ridden at all until the joined. In that context, the word "effectiveness" was the singular direction of the Fort Riley method. By then the seat taught at Fort Riley had lost a lot of its English, western and pre-Caprilli identity pieces and had become a truly unique seat. That is why you can have by the 1950's riders come out of the Fort Riley discipline as diverse and Monte Foreman (western) and Gordon Wright (English). It was just effective. That's all.
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Post by jimmy on Dec 30, 2015 15:58:03 GMT
Don't worry HG. I will post soon. Very interested. Thinking. And busy.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 30, 2015 17:15:25 GMT
linkThis video shows a jumper riding a reining horse and a reining rider jumping. Let's see some discussion on who is able to transfer better. I think the video is interesting. Both riders were out of their element and both showed difficulty in their upper backs. The western rider was hunched over with closed shoulders and a rounded back. The English rider was leaning back and as a result when her horse moved to quickly change direction, she got rocked in her upper body quite substantially. Neither kept their feet under them. I think the real test there would be to have a good polo player ride both horses. I suspect that this rider would look the same, very centered, on each horse doing both tasks because polo is the "closest thing there is to war" according to Gen. George Patton, who was very good at both war and polo and rode using the Fort Riley Seat.
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Post by jimmy on Dec 31, 2015 4:09:24 GMT
Years ago when my ex and I had a training stable, she invited the local pony club chapter to use our place for meets and lessons. I remember feeling surprised at the poor quality of the instruction. They taught the kids to prop up off their horse in "two point" I guess it was. Their backs were held braced and hollow. The kids were just perched on the horses back in this contrived position that looked so ineffective to me to actually be able to control a horse from there. The reins were flopping around. And of course, there was the crest release as gospel. How this was supposed to teach a seat, I will never know. We tried to make suggestions, but the politics of pony club were obvious, and you could not question the authority of the hierarchy. It was the most ineffective riding I ever saw. The kids weren't learning to ride. They were learning to pose.
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Post by horseguy on Dec 31, 2015 13:33:49 GMT
... invited the local pony club chapter to use our place for meets and lessons. I remember feeling surprised at the poor quality of the instruction. They taught the kids to prop up off their horse in "two point" I guess it was. Their backs were held braced and hollow ... We tried to make suggestions, but the politics of pony club were obvious, and you could not question the authority of the hierarchy. I don't remember the exact year, I think maybe 1985, the US Pony Club quit the British Horse Society affiliation and went on their own. I had a Club that met at my farm and my youngest daughter was in it. It was a big mistake. Essentially what happened was a bunch of "soccer moms" who didn't know much about horses took it over all the way up to national level. Morris reached his peak in the early 80's and showing was all the rage. Before him there were really only four shows a year max in any area, seasonal summer, fall winter & spring. With Morris there was a show every weekend. The moms wanted their kids to show and Pony Club had only a couple Rallies (PC competitions) a year and the moms could not talk to their kids during a Rally. A few Clubs held out and maintained the British standard, but one by one most went the way of Morris. Our local Club disbanded after I got divorced. You cannot underestimate the damage Morris did to American Riding. I like you Jimmy watched it but felt helpless as horsemanship quality in Pony Club and in general disintegrated. I went off, newly single again and just played polo and ignored almost every other discipline until around 2000 after I got injured and could no longer play. I built a xc course and taught real riding again, but I was not mainstream. But when I returned, the US Eventing Association was there, not the Combined Training Association. That change was, I think, a bit like the Americanization of Pony Club. There is something about the American Culture that likes to change things, and very often the changes are not improvements. Questioning "the authority of the hierarchy" is hopeless once the political types get control. I admire the US Polo Association because it has not changed much at all in decades. The US Polo Association never joined the US Equestrian Federation either, to their credit. I think generally that the people who are genuinely committed to horsemanship don't like meetings and politics, and the people who are not committed to riding, and don't ride well as a result, compensate by trying to run things.
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