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4H
Dec 31, 2015 17:32:09 GMT
Post by horseguy on Dec 31, 2015 17:32:09 GMT
I have a student who is in 4H and I know very little about 4H. I could use some help here if you know about that system or club. It's been over 30 years since I had any involvement with 4H.
I have the PA rule book for 4H competitions and I am trying to get a feel for the standards. The first thing is I am told that a horse and rider can only enter English or western classes in a competition, never both. If that is true, it goes against everything I understand about developing versatility in a horse and in a rider. Is this true? A 4H competitor must select one or the other, English or Western?
Second, in the Hunt Seat Equitation flat class they ask for sitting trot in a line and in a circle in a 2 point. In old Pony Club and the Balanced/Military Seat 2 point means standing in the irons and not leaning on the neck (2 point meaning 2 feet, the neck would be a 3rd point). In the American show seat (Morris) it would mean standing in the irons and leaning on the neck. What does it mean in 4H?
Under turn on the haunches it says, "turn on the haunches no more than 180 degrees". What are they looking for 45, 90 degrees, what? Likewise regarding turn on the forehand?
There is a lead change in a line requirement and it says "simple or flying lead change". I am not used to "or". How do they judge this? Is equal credit given for simple vs. flying? If a rider picks simple lead changes, how many trot strides and canter strides does 4H expect with these changes in a line?
Thanking you in advance, as they say, for any help on this, as well as any other insights into 4H competitions.
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4H
Dec 31, 2015 21:49:19 GMT
Post by jimmy on Dec 31, 2015 21:49:19 GMT
We tried the 4H deal also. Kind of the same soccer mom deal.
There is a popular saying when it comes to the 4H horse manual.
There is the right way, the wrong way, and then the 4H way.
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4H
Dec 31, 2015 22:14:16 GMT
Post by horseguy on Dec 31, 2015 22:14:16 GMT
There is the right way, the wrong way, and then the 4H way. I can see that in the4H manual. It is vague. There are interesting "vaguenesses" in the Army manuals but only about certain points where they intended to be non-specific. An example would be about stirrup length. The Army gave a base standard, which was to stand in the irons and put your clenched fist between your crotch and the seat of the saddle. You can imagine that this method of measurement, which was how every riding lesson of my youth began, fell out of favor when girls took over the sport. After the "crotch/fist test" the manual said that every rider's conformation varied as a horse's did and that adjustments off the standard were permitted as required. That's Army vague, but the 4H competition requirements are open ended vague and puzzling. That, I assume, is the "4H way" you are talking about. |
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4H
Jan 1, 2016 15:13:15 GMT
Post by Jlynn on Jan 1, 2016 15:13:15 GMT
HG: It's been a few years since I have worked with 4-H kids, but here is my take: I've never heard of only being able to enter in English or Western. The kids I worked with did both. Two point is like you said - not leaning on the neck. A 180 degree turn is turning around to face the opposite way and a flying lead change done correctly is preferable, but some kids/horses can't do them, so a simple lead change correctly executed is better than a poorly executed flying change. Here is a link to Michigan's 4H rule book - although it is from 2011, the 2015 version takes forever to load. 4h.msue.msu.edu/uploads/files/2011horserulebkfullsheet.pdf |
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4H
Jan 2, 2016 14:37:10 GMT
Post by horseguy on Jan 2, 2016 14:37:10 GMT
... A 180 degree turn is turning around to face the opposite way ... Thank you for this info. It's interesting 4H is asking for the traditional 2 point in Michigan. The puzzling thing for me is that the Pennsylvania turn on the haunches requirements says "no more than 180 degrees". That could mean 10 degrees or anything up to 179 degrees. It makes me wonder if a rider scores better up to 180 and after that the judges detract. I have never seen something like this. I went to the Michigan's 4H rule book, thanks. It is better than the PA version, more clear with expanded descriptions and drawings. Plus, you say that Michigan riders can do English and Western. It can be very difficult teaching riding in the US because we have so many standards, USDF, USEA, HSA, Pony Club, 4H, and more all setting standards for "English" riding. The US Equestrian Federation, formed in 2003, wassgoing to come up with a more universal set of standards and definitions, but nothing has really changed. The USEF Rule Book has 30 sections, www.usef.org/_iframes/rulebook/2016.aspx , 16 of which have some or all of its rules covering different versions of "English" riding, and these rule sections do not include the various breed association Federation members English show requirements except Arabians. Too many. |
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4H
Jan 3, 2016 12:41:38 GMT
Post by Jlynn on Jan 3, 2016 12:41:38 GMT
I haven't read the PA version, but I suspect it was written more for leaders and judges, as a guideline not to ask the kids to do more than a 180.
The difficulty in "English" riding (in anything, really) comes from losing the "form to function" thing. Take away the job that it was developed for (dressage and battle, jumping and hunting) and any standard can be created. I think reining is a great example - It took me more than 6 months to be able to sit a spin correctly and stop at the right number of revolutions - and even then I was dizzy after. In what situation will I ever use that?
I worked with kids from farm families who kept a horse or two in with the cows. They couldn't afford a trainer and I was willing to help them out. We worked on improving balance, (two point is good for that - so I personally don't understand the reason behind leaning on the neck), leads, trailer loading, feeding, hoof care and staying safe. 4-H in my area wasn't considered an end in itself, but a starting point. I don't have the knowledge or the skills for much more than that.
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4H
Jan 4, 2016 17:39:05 GMT
Post by rideanotherday on Jan 4, 2016 17:39:05 GMT
I showed 4H when I was in high school. We were able to show English and Western - to enter into speed events (barrel racing etc) you had to show in at least one rail class. Most of the classes were on the flat. I don't remember any jumping courses. It was a really rural area and very much more cow oriented.
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4H
Jan 12, 2016 14:48:45 GMT
Post by horseguy on Jan 12, 2016 14:48:45 GMT
I finally got a reply to my inquiry about Pennsylvania 4H show standards so I can teach my young student and get her ready for the spring county show. PA, for reasons I do not understand, limits riders to one type of riding, English or western at a 4H show. They do have a provision for a second horse if a member wants to do both. We are not a rich county, so the two horse/two class option seems kinda theoretical. The best news is a 2 point is really a two point in PA 4H. The kids have to ride in the irons without touching the neck.
My other questions got answers that basically say it's up to the judge that day. That means a kid will be asked for a turn on the haunches and the on the forehand "of less than 180 degrees" according to the book. Being very competitive and obsessive about such things, I wonder if my student will like learning a 1 degree turn, a 2 degree turn, a 3 degree turn, and so on. Just kidding. The answer on my simple versus flying lead change was also given in terms of what the show judge that day likes to see. Given that the kids in 4H go up through levels, County, Regional to State, I am puzzled at the lack of uniformity in the PA judging guidelines and standards.
I love equestrian sports with a clock and objective faults, i.e. the rail fell down or it didn't, or the ball went through the goal posts or it didn't. Judged equestrian sport is a perilous enterprise. I think the USDF (US Dressage Federation) does perhaps the best (relative term) job of turning out some uniformity of its standards in competitions. But generally I have seen too many kids crying at horse shows as a result of class results that I as their father or instructor just could not explain to the child in any rational way.
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