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Post by horseguy on Jan 7, 2016 19:44:36 GMT
On another thread the subject of watching horses and riders in the context of teaching. I thought I'd post some videos to discuss. I am posting a horse named Beau. He is a 6 year old cross bred 15.1 H gelding.
This second video is me riding Beau over his first substantial cross country jump.
By no means do I think this is a great piece of riding, so don't be afraid to be critical. I doubt you'd be as harsh and I am of it.
What do you see?
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Post by rideanotherday on Jan 7, 2016 20:25:29 GMT
Those are pretty short videos to judge on.
I'd go back to flat work with this horse. I'm not a jumper by ANY stretch....let me preface my comments with that.
The horse appears to be resisting both riders. The girl needs to lift her hands to get a reasonable half halt to prep him for the jump.
Bob, what you did with your upper body and hands kinda make me cringe for that horse's mouth. Both you and the horse were bracing on each other like crazy. I don't know anything about him or his habits, but in my world, we'd go into an arena and we would work on rollbacks and whoa and backing up until he was really in between the my hands and feet and waiting for me. His brand of resistance comes from unforgiving hands quite often. He's bracing because he expects to get chucked in the face or having too much of a hold on his face with no softening when he gets it right.I know jumping isn't quite like that, but he gets so upside down in his frame that it's a wonder he gets off the ground in time. I was surprised he could even see the jump well enough to get his spot.
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Post by horseguy on Jan 7, 2016 21:13:52 GMT
Yeah, that's a pretty awful approach. All I can say is it's one way to train a field horse. There is always a horse's first real jump, which can go either way. You let them go at it, and you do what you must to keep them and yourself safe. He's a great little horse and kinda complicated. He's bold to a fault and he get's very excited in an immature kind of way at new things. That video is about 8 months old and by now he's jumping lazy, dragging his hind feet over a jump. The excitement is over for him. He lived to tell about his "first time". In the horse training business there is a saying about doing the ugly stuff "behind the barn", not on video for sure, but it is useful to see what happens sometimes. I knew this was going to be ugly but in some horses the straightest path to training is to go right into it. Putting a young, basically immature horse like Beau to a relatively big solid wide jump was, in my opinion, the simplest way to go. No use "cutting off a dog's tail one inch at a time" with him.
The bit was and is a fat snaffle. My goal was to let him go as much as I could but make sure he didn't plow the jump. He had plowed a few bigger jumps in the arena that fell down but this one would not. I knew this but he didn't. I widened my reins and tapped his shoulder going into the take off. All I wanted was a safe jump, ugly as it might be.
What I was after is this.
He's a little hollow in the back and I am a little behind the motion, my feet are a little forward for the landing (or crash as the case might have been) but that is defensive riding. He got over it quite well under the circumstances, those being Beau is very athletic, immature, too bold and impulsive, and at his age having to learn his job.
I was 68 years old when I jumped that jump. Yes I was braced in the approach. At 68 bones heal a lot more slowly and over the years I have had a wide variation of outcomes taking impulsive horses to their first jump like this. I like to think when I was younger and more resilient I might have looked a little more relaxed. But we all moved on after this jump. I hunted him that coming fall and he was great. Nothing stopped us. We got him relaxed and using his energy more correctly. He' not finished by any means but he's come a long way from that first day over solid jumps that take him into the air. Having had a birthday since, I am not sure I am going to do that again.
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Post by horseguy on Jan 7, 2016 23:34:38 GMT
An after thought. I believe it is easier to develop an eye for horse and rider movement looking at errors, which is why I posted these videos. Perhaps I think this because I have spent my life looking at far more errors than great riding. I don't know. But either way, it is useful to look at less than perfect riding and horse movement. I hope people will post what they see, and if my comments seem incomplete, ask again please. It's about learning.
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Post by jacki on Jan 8, 2016 5:50:10 GMT
Rhythm, Relaxation, Straightness, Impulsion... I'd say relaxation is what he needs to work on the most (I know he's got it now). I think what looks like "bracing" may be partially a footing issue -- coming out of a lead change prior to the jump in the second video, Beau is on a left lead in the hind and a right lead in the front. He fixes it on the landing.
I have to add I am NOT a rider, just a longtime "watcher" and listener, and I usually have more questions than comments
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Post by horseguy on Jan 8, 2016 13:55:40 GMT
Jacki, I have known some vets who were not riders but were very good judges of lameness in horses, and come to think about it, I have known vets who ride who were awful at seeing lameness. Instructors, vets, instructors and horse trainers need to develop and eye for biomechanics. Riders need to develop a feel for biomechanics, which I think is mostly feeling footfalls and the direction of a horse's energy as it moves through the horse's body. Riders need feel because they cannot see the horse move as they ride.
Your take on Beau's approach is very good, I think. He is very braced and he is "dancing" with his feet. If you watch or ride many highly athletic horses, they regularly do things with their body that are mixed, wrong and ugly perhaps out of excitement or indecision. The odd thing about this athletic type of horse is somehow they make it all come out right when it counts. With time, I think they just get bored, then they relax and that leads them into a more conventional efficiency in their movement.
I will offer a contrast to Beau as a type in Kevin, the Mustang tricolor paint, who had very little athleticism, but solid balance and a cool head. He was almost always correct in his movement. For example, he always did lead changes, not because of his training but I think because he was so muscle bound and simplistic in his biomechanics that cantering a turn on the wrong lead was simply too difficult and uncomfortable for him. His range of motion often would not permit an incorrect lead, and because of this if you could keep him cantering (he liked to go down to a trot if he entered a turn on the worn lead) he would change leads. With horses like Beau, their athleticism allows them to do a pretty balanced turn on the wrong lead or to go back and forth between leads in a turn.
Rhythm, Relaxation, Straightness, Impulsion are the ingredients of a good approach. The other rule I use is "a jump has three parts, the approach, the jump itself, and the landing". The rider is responsible for the first and the third part and the horse is responsible for the second part. When we train jumpers we hardly every get a horse that does all three equally well in the beginning. This forces a choice. Do we use a linier method, saying I will not do the second part until I get a very good first part in the horse? In the second video you see a trainer who has made a choice to focus on the second part of the jump first. The reasoning that lead to this decision was a combination of Beau's chronic immaturity that put him behind in the training schedule and his ability. Some might say the decision is one of rushing his training by not first establishing a good approach to a jump. That would be a reasonable and correct evaluation of Beau's training in the video. As a counter point to that reasonable evaluation, it could be said that Beau had sufficient preparation in learning a good approach, but his mind when faced with a new type of jump or a bigger jump, abandoned his methodical approach training.
Given that circumstance, IF the trainer feels Beau can do the second part well, he/she can move on past the anxious approach and let him do his excited jump approach so he can experience that his anticipatory anxiety is only a self generated myth. It's a judgment call for a trainer. Beau could have plowed that jump. He could have got hung up on it. There were several not so good potential outcomes in letting him go to that jump in an anxious approach, not the least of which would have been a dangerous landing.
Making the decision to let him do the approach in his anxiety goes back in a very odd way to the square zero idea. In a jump, square zero is the take off area or the box as it is sometimes called. If you trust that if you bring a horse like Beau to the box in reasonably correct way and that he will fully use his athleticism to move out of square zero into square one with sufficient athletic power and grace, you are setting him up to move as correctly and it will work. That's training. If you make this kind of leap frog judgment in flat work, the consequences are minimal, meaning if the horse fails, it is because you were wrong, so you do it again with better judgment. But if you use this same degree of judgment training a horse to jump, the consequences are greater for both horse and rider, and just doing it again can be more difficult or impossible. It is a calculated risk but it is the same in that you set up the horse for a movement so he can learn, thus moving him forward in his training.
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Post by horseguy on Jan 9, 2016 15:08:45 GMT
I would like to request that people post videos of equine movement. I think these videos should be either of themselves or older films where people would be unlikely to sill be alive. An example might be 1930's to 1950's dressage videos when a wider range of type of equine movement was common in international dressage. The videos could be anything, western, English, anything. I just don't want to offend anyone by critiquing a stranger's video.
To insert a video just copy the URL and click the icon above and paste the URL in the box that comes up. Thanks.
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Post by Laura on Jan 11, 2016 3:38:27 GMT
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