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Post by jimmy on Jan 21, 2016 1:33:28 GMT
The horse at the walk and the trot is very balanced. He can change direction, speed, go sideways, back up, without having to change his balance. The canter, lope, gallop is entirely different. The horse cannot change directions without changing his balance. He is at the canter the most one sided he can be. It only works for one direction at a time. He cannot change directions at the canter without changing his foot placement, or he will fall into an unbalanced state. In the field, he changes directions anytime he wants, and for the most part, changes leads accordingly quite easily. Sometimes he is disunited even then. Riding the horse compounds this basic bio-dynamic fact even more. Leads are natural for the horse, but not with a rider, it seems, at least at first. So many horses ride smoothly until the rider picks up the lope. That's when things usually fall apart. Why is this? Why can a horse change himself up in the field, and his first response when a rider ask him to change directions at a canter, is to disunite, or be unbalanced? I have a hunch it is because in the field, it is his idea. Somehow he allows us to change direction when we ride him, but his first idea is to not change. Until we train him to the idea. I am thinking, we don't do enough work at the gallop. And there are so many riders who are uncomfortable at the canter, or gallop, because they don't get good training. And in my opinion, a horse is not fully trained if he cannot find his balance at speed, and at a gallop. And by balance, I mean using both leads where and when they are needed, on demand, automatically.
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Post by rideanotherday on Jan 21, 2016 13:00:56 GMT
The horse at the walk and the trot is very balanced. He can change direction, speed, go sideways, back up, without having to change his balance. The canter, lope, gallop is entirely different. The horse cannot change directions without changing his balance. He is at the canter the most one sided he can be. It only works for one direction at a time. He cannot change directions at the canter without changing his foot placement, or he will fall into an unbalanced state. In the field, he changes directions anytime he wants, and for the most part, changes leads accordingly quite easily. Sometimes he is disunited even then. Riding the horse compounds this basic bio-dynamic fact even more. Leads are natural for the horse, but not with a rider, it seems, at least at first. So many horses ride smoothly until the rider picks up the lope. That's when things usually fall apart. Why is this? Why can a horse change himself up in the field, and his first response when a rider ask him to change directions at a canter, is to disunite, or be unbalanced? I have a hunch it is because in the field, it is his idea. Somehow he allows us to change direction when we ride him, but his first idea is to not change. Until we train him to the idea. I am thinking, we don't do enough work at the gallop. And there are so many riders who are uncomfortable at the canter, or gallop, because they don't get good training. And in my opinion, a horse is not fully trained if he cannot find his balance at speed, and at a gallop. And by balance, I mean using both leads where and when they are needed, on demand, automatically. I have some thoughts about that. How many riders these days are truly fit enough to ride horse at speed? It does require core fitness to be balanced and ride it well. It's as much the riders fault that the lope or gallop falls apart. It's less about correct or adequate training on how to ride well and more about the fact that riders don't work on things outside of riding. Fitness is key to riding a balanced lope. It's also a unique combination of "feeling and finding" that balance point that the horse AND rider must do as a team. People want to micromanage and force the horse into what the rider perceives as a correct and balanced lope instead of finding what the horse is capable of. Then there is fear. Fear of speed, fear of falling, fear of getting it wrong. Any amount of fear can gum up the works as well.
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Post by horseguy on Jan 21, 2016 17:28:45 GMT
Why can a horse change himself up in the field, and his first response when a rider ask him to change directions at a canter, is to disunite, or be unbalanced? I have a hunch it is because in the field, it is his idea. Somehow he allows us to change direction when we ride him, but his first idea is to not change. Until we train him to the idea. " ... because in the field, it is his idea" Exactly. That is the underlying principle in the "scared straight" approach to horse training. When you train a horse in difficult circumstances, like a slippery side hill, they focus and realize they must come up with immediate practical solutions to balance changes. All the disunited canter responses to a lead change cue are inconsequential in a flat arena with even footing. Yes, we need more work at the canter and the gallop, and yes people are generally not fit enough to do this work, but I would add that as long as horses think that their entire career as a riding horse is going to be in a safe, flat, comfortable arena, they are going to blow off correctness simply because it is not necessary, and that is why, I believe, they don't come up with their idea of correct balance. It's not necessary.
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Post by rideanotherday on Jan 21, 2016 18:43:25 GMT
Why can a horse change himself up in the field, and his first response when a rider ask him to change directions at a canter, is to disunite, or be unbalanced? I have a hunch it is because in the field, it is his idea. Somehow he allows us to change direction when we ride him, but his first idea is to not change. Until we train him to the idea. " ... because in the field, it is his idea" Exactly. That is the underlying principle in the "scared straight" approach to horse training. When you train a horse in difficult circumstances, like a slippery side hill, they focus and realize they must come up with immediate practical solutions to balance changes. All the disunited canter responses to a lead change cue are inconsequential in a flat arena with even footing. Yes, we need more work at the canter and the gallop, and yes people are generally not fit enough to do this work, but I would add that as long as horses think that their entire career as a riding horse is going to be in a safe, flat, comfortable arena, they are going to blow off correctness simply because it is not necessary, and that is why, I believe, they don't come up with their idea of correct balance. It's not necessary. A scared horse is not a thinking horse, nor is he truly learning. He may pick up for "events" ie a muddy hill, but being able to generalize that knowledge to other things is stretching it. This is going to be one of those places where I will just disagree with you Horseguy. The things I want to do with a horse do not involve terror on the part of me or my horse. I respect the fact that it has worked for you in the past. If it were truly functional as a training method it would be much more widely taught. You'll run out of both horses and students with a scared straight approach, especially one that risks the health and wellness of both. I don't think you are mean because you choose to train that way. I do know that it is not for me If you are letting your horse blow off correctness, it's not because the arena is flat, safe and comfortable. It's because you either don't know or don't care about correctness. I've ridden cutters some and worked cattle. I think we can all agree that those horses change directions like nobody's business. The answer isn't about "scared straight". Cutters don't work scared. They work for the fun of it and the best cutters have figured out how to stay out of the way of the horse, to be part of what they are doing rather than trying to manage it. It's about being able to flow with the horse. The "dry work"...the foundation training without cows is pretty short compared to a lot of other disciplines, though it does get worked alongside time on cows. Being able to stop that cow and control it is what teaches the horse to be mindful of feet and body (no muddy hills necessary). It's a big game to the best of them and they like to win.
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Post by horseguy on Jan 21, 2016 21:10:49 GMT
"A scared horse is not a thinking horse, nor is he truly learning."
Last night I was tired and accidently deleted my original post. What I originally said was in response to this quote. Basically when I use the term "scared straight" in training I mean that I introduce natural consequences. By natural I meant not artificial like in an arena. I make a horse deal with footing and terrain that occurs in nature with all its infinite variations. The horse is not really scared, but some to kind of "freeze" when they have been trained in artificial settings but most go to their basic instincts and come up with solutions to natural balance challenges.
Jimmy put forth the idea that when it's the horse's idea to rebalance they do a better job than when it's the riders idea. Working and training horses over natural terrain in all conditions causes horses to come up with their ideas of balance even though we direct them. This is my point.
On the more general subject of fear in horses with regard to people and training, I agree that fear is not a good element of training. In thinking about fear in training, probably the only time I will introduce fear is when I encounter a horse that has learned to dominate humans using aggression that causes fear in humans. Then I will "give a horse a taste of their own medicine". I am reminded of the horse in the movie Buck. If you remember the scene when Buck loaded that dangerously aggressive horse onto the trainer using flags, you could see him using something akin to fear to control that horse. It was in Buck's intense but quiet countenance, how he move the flags and how he stood that transmitted a sense to that horse that he was not afraid and that the horse should respect or even fear him. Sometimes you have to do that.
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Post by jimmy on Jan 21, 2016 23:01:06 GMT
I did not take your comment as purposefully scaring a horse. I read it more along the line of the horses I call, "off road horses". The kind that gather cattle in steep terrain. Or high mountain pack lead horses. The ones that really learned to negotiate hills, were the ones that fell down a couple of times. Or fell off the trail, if there was one. And not that I wanted them too, either. They just didn't even know that could happen. So the learned how to arrange themselves, and be careful where they needed to be.
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Post by jacki on Jan 22, 2016 1:08:46 GMT
I have gone to the Farm Show in Harrisburg several times to watch the Grand Prix. In stadium jumping, balance and leads are critical. The best riders in the country/world come and ride "high quality" horses. I believe most of the time, the riders are riding horses owned by other people and haven't "met" their horse until that week. The horses and riders are all in great shape, but you don't have to be a rider to notice that there are some horse & rider combinations that seem much more unified than others. I am not knowledgeable enough, nor have I been to enough of these events to observe whether it is intuitive riders, i.e. the same few riders who "team" well with different horses, or whether it is some horses that "team" well with a particular type of rider. Either way, it is very interesting to watch.
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Post by horseguy on Jan 22, 2016 13:52:15 GMT
I am teaching Mac to do lead changes, and he can do them, but most of the time when I ask him for the change he changes only in the front even if he is properly on his hind. He sometimes does it over jumps as well, but it usually has something to do with him being off stride/chipping. There are some days where he is almost perfect and anticipates the changes, but there are days where I don't think I could get him to do a change correctly to save my life. I don't know how to correct him from changing incorrectly. He clearly knows what I want him to do, but he doesn't do it right. I copied this from he questions section.
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Post by jimmy on Jan 22, 2016 16:27:24 GMT
There are many ways to answer Laura's question. There are many exercises to help strengthen the hind quarters. All of these involve a lot of canter, galloping, stopping, rolling back. Monty Foreman, Jimmy Williams, and the like, were very good with leads. I was never a fan of Monty Foreman, but his study of leads was good. Stopping, roll backs, even cantering the smallest circle you can, then galloping out of it, teaches the horse to get balanced, and use himself. Having a good back up is also important, although Monty never mentions it. I find that odd. Drop to trot lead changes can be useful, giving the horse some time to get himself organized. All of these things require you be a strong rider, and not fearful of a little speed.
You have to break out of the hunter jumper paradigm to get this done. You can't keep practicing the same thing, and expect different results.
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Post by horseguy on Jan 22, 2016 20:36:46 GMT
There are many ways to answer Laura's question. There are many exercises to help strengthen the hind quarters. All of these involve a lot of canter, galloping, stopping, rolling back. Monty Foreman, Jimmy Williams, and the like, were very good with leads. I was never a fan of Monty Foreman, but his study of leads was good. Stopping, roll backs, even cantering the smallest circle you can, then galloping out of it, teaches the horse to get balanced, and use himself. Having a good back up is also important, although Monty never mentions it. I find that odd. Drop to trot lead changes can be useful, giving the horse some time to get himself organized. All of these things require you be a strong rider, and not fearful of a little speed. You have to break out of the hunter jumper paradigm to get this done. You can't keep practicing the same thing, and expect different results. I agree Jimmy. I also know this horse is unfit and from a Hunter/Jumper background, as is the owner, who is not Laura. Laura, do the work. The horse is a teenager set in his ways, so don't expect miracles but a fit horse that is worked in a way that requires regular, if not constant rebalancing, will improve. Maybe as we approach spring you will be able to ride him more and thus see more measureable improvement. Keep in mind that he is expecting a rider like his owner. Find a way to let him know from the moment you mount that you are not her. Try to get him to anticipate you as his rider by how you begin and work him. A good horse wants a good rider.
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Post by Laura on Jan 22, 2016 21:09:57 GMT
Thank you Jimmy, but I am not a hunter, nor a jumper. I dislike both very highly and find them ridiculous.I was taught balanced seat by the very person who started this forum, aka Horseguy. I am in no sense weak mentally or physically, as I am in two other sports. My favorite equestrian sports include eventing and foxhunting, and believe me I have no problem going fast. I was once being trained to ride at staff level for foxhunting. I helped train one of my favorite foxhunting horses when she was twelve(Blaze). I had hoped to start eventing her when the season came, but she went to a good home. I am in no sense a tentative or fearful rider. This is in no way my first time training a horse. This is the least stubborn horse I've ever dealt with, he just isn't very smart and has been poorly trained for 12 years of his life. Thank you for the advice. I will use these techniques to help him build up muscle.
Thanks Bob, I will try to find what works for him and what gets his attention. When I ask him to do something, he is usually very relaxed and very willing to do it, but when he doesn't want to do something, like a lead change, and I make him do it he tenses up and gets very forward, almost high strong. If he gets tense when i'm jumping him, he usually ends up doing the half and half lead over the jump. Do you have any suggestions that i could use to make him do something without him getting super tense and nervous?
Laura
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Post by horseguy on Jan 22, 2016 22:40:58 GMT
When I ask him to do something, he is usually very relaxed and very willing to do it, but when he doesn't want to do something, like a lead change, and I make him do it he tenses up and gets very forward, almost high strong. If he gets tense when i'm jumping him, he usually ends up doing the half and half lead over the jump. Do you have any suggestions that i could use to make him do something without him getting super tense and nervous? The facts are that the horse was Hunter/Jumper trained in spite of being in Pony Club. He's a teenager. You are a focused strong young rider. Furthermore, every time his owner rides him, it reinforces his prior training and life. Your say, "I make him do it he tenses up and gets very forward". You make him uncomfortable because you expect more and he gets insecure with a sort of panic attack because it's a new experience for him encountering higher expectations. Lastly, he's not fit. Part of me hopes they are paying you to ride him, but that would require that the owner understands the situation, which I doubt. Life is not perfect, ever. You have a horse to ride. He's a pretty nice mover when he's not being lazy. You can learn from this horse. Take Jimmy's advice and do the work. Your goal is to get a good recommendation from the owner so you can move on to a little better and maybe younger horse. When I was your age catching rides, I had some doozies. One bolted on me and ran through a couple board fences. Be thankful for a decent mount is my advice. It could be a lot worse. Remember, down deep, a good horse wants a good rider. Keep us posted.
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Post by jimmy on Jan 23, 2016 4:00:45 GMT
HG said, " You make him uncomfortable because you expect more."
That is temporary. That is what I mean by not being fearful of some speed. If you ask for a change somewhere in the process I described, and he gets tight and speeds up, go with him. Keep him at a gallop,if you can, on the circle. Even gallop on the wrong lead. Chase him a little. Don't scare him with a lot of leg, just ride as fast as he does, on that circle. (All safety in consideration) Allow his difficulty to work for you, and stay out his way. Let him find how to balance himself and change. There may be a horse in there you never knew, and either did he! I have had it happen many times. When he does finally balance and fix his lead, he will feel so much better inside about things. Just don't drill on it or stress him too much. Galloping will not stress him.Some air in his lungs might wake him up. Sometimes these horses have an ah ah moment.
Ray Hunt said something along these lines:
You will never get what you never had, if you don't give something you never gave.
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Post by Laura on Jan 23, 2016 4:33:17 GMT
Thanks for all the tips guys. I hope to ride soon, but we're kind of in the middle of a blizzard right now, so i might have to wait until it stops being a blizzard to ride. What both of you are saying makes a lot of sense and I hope it works for Mac. I see a lot of potential in him, he just doesn't know how to use it yet.
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Post by jacki on Jan 25, 2016 13:43:24 GMT
Your suggestions make sense to me, too. However, as Laura's Mom I couldn't resist telling her, "That's why those guys have more broken bones than they can count." To which Laura replied, "If you don't fall twice a year, you're not learning anything/pushing yourself, and I haven't fallen in years!" So I guess my next question is "How much snow is too much snow to ride?" Just kidding - right now, she would only ride in pastures or on trails where she knows there aren't logs, etc. hidden under the snow.
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