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Post by horseguy on Feb 5, 2016 14:16:38 GMT
I have been the person you people have trusted with their horse for training. I would spend significant time trying to understand the owner's goals. I have missed that mark several times. Once a guy sent me a polo horse to tune up and I tuned it up to the point that he could no longer hit a ball from that horse. All I did was teach the horse to accelerate into the ball, which put this marginal rider back in the saddle and he couldn't get a shot off. Before he sent me the horse he had it slowing down into the ball, which is considered a fault. Still, it was not what he wanted and he was angry because I made an incorrect assumption.
I have also had dangerous horses come and I had to teach them respect for humans. One woman was both pleased at the resulting safety, but when I explained how I did it, she was very upset at me for using a plastic pipe to hit her horse in the belly when it reared while being lead by a rope.
Grayhorse posted this video. Jimmy and I thought it was "heavy handed" to briefly summarize.
(Carrie, if you would prefer that I do not use this video, let me know, I will delete it)
This kind of training is quick but it doesn't usually "stick" on a horse. Throwing a horse around causes a horse to feel thrown around and the horse never "owns" the changes the training is trying to achieve. If the horse does not own the changes they evaporate. But there are also lingering unintended consequences in some horses from a heavy handed approach to training. One result can be that a horse shuts down for a short or long period of time. Young sensitive horses in particular can be overwhelmed by training that is too intense for them. They feel so over stimulated and out of control that they get sort of numb.
I am wondering if anyone has encountered this situation where a horse goes off to training or has some other experiences, and the result is an uncharacteristic shutting down.
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Post by jimmy on Feb 5, 2016 16:37:05 GMT
The unintended lingering negative consequences of training. That is a very important subject, and one worth looking at in depth.
Any approach to changing a horse's behavior has to weigh the consequences and look for the secondary behaviors that may result.
Negative punishment creating secondary behavior we don't want is obvious to most. Creating a head shy horse as a result of teaching a young colt not to bite, for instance, is an easy one.
While we may target a specific behavior we want to change, we have to consider the overall result in attitude produces. We hear sayings about respect without fear, obedience without the shutting down.
Most of the blame goes to excessive roughness, or punishment, with a horse.
However, there are also consequences to some attempts to use nothing but positive reinforcement only. Using treats as a reward falls into this category. Clicker training, while well intentioned, often brings about anxious behavior in a horse, when there is no click. A horse becoming anxious when being deprived of a reward, I would consider an untintended consequence. A horse motivated by an expected reward, if agitated and conflicted, is not much better than a horse motivated by fear of punishment. Neither give me desired results. It is another form of inner conflict in the horse.
We don't want mental conflict. I think the desired result is, a horse that is the way he is, in all the good things we want, because of the life he lives around people, is the way it is.
You mention the pvc pipe and the rearing horse. Well, if the case were, he learned to be that way, without any negative consequences, it worked for him somehow, and just became habit. Or perhaps he learned there was a unintended reward by doing it. But either way, it becomes dangerous. So, some sort of negative, in the way of your pipe, may surprised him, change his mind, even, I dare say, hurt him, may hopefully only create temporary negatives, in the way of fear, or flinching, etc. But those things are intended to break habits. Then you can go about your business day after day, only expecting the best from your horse. You simply don't except the rearing as anything that belongs to the picture. He lives life that way. The whole idea disappears from his mind, with no secondary behaviors.
If you look at horses interact, they are not always nice to one another. But they do seem to understand fairness.
However, a young, untamed horse, may rear for very different reasons, so our approach will be adjusted. That same "cure" for rearing may be inappropriate for that young stallion, and all that will be necessary is putting him to work, moving his feet, changing his mind, not allowing a habit to form in the first place. That is neither really reward or punishment.
There is a lot to think about this.
We must always weigh these things.
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Post by horseguy on Feb 5, 2016 21:10:59 GMT
... A horse becoming anxious when being deprived of a reward, I would consider an unintended consequence. A horse motivated by an expected reward, if agitated and conflicted, is not much better than a horse motivated by fear of punishment. Neither give me desired results. It is another form of inner conflict in the horse. We don't want mental conflict. I think the desired result is, a horse that is the way he is, in all the good things we want, because of the life he lives around people, is the way it is. You mention the pvc pipe and the rearing horse. Well, if the case were, he learned to be that way, without any negative consequences, it worked for him somehow, and just became habit. Or perhaps he learned there was a unintended reward by doing it. But either way, it becomes dangerous. So, some sort of negative, in the way of your pipe, may surprised him, change his mind, even, I dare say, hurt him, may hopefully only create temporary negatives, in the way of fear, or flinching, etc. But those things are intended to break habits. Then you can go about your business day after day, only expecting the best from your horse. You simply don't except the rearing as anything that belongs to the picture. He lives life that way. The whole idea disappears from his mind, with no secondary behaviors ... This horse got a lot of control from his rearing while being lead. He was a 16.3h Friesian and he seemed to enjoy scaring people. The woman who owned him lead him back out of her trailer and immediately handed me the lead rope and scooted away. I noticed immediately that the lead was extra long, maybe 14 feet. Just as I was pondering why a horse would have such a long lead, he reared and there I was holding the end of the rope. Got it. It was a device that gave him permission to rear. So I went through the usual corrections. I snapped the lead as he went up, but he was so big and strong and he ignored it. Then I went from leading him out front to the side to moving all the way to his side and pulling him down in a twisted kind of way. That surprised a little him but the next time he twisted as he went up making it difficult for me to swing to his side. I realized he had see that correction before. On and on through different corrections we went, until I got out my whiffle ball bat and smacked him in the belly when he went up. Hitting a rearing horse in the belly, for those who don't know, teaches them that when they rear they expose in their belly, which is a place predators attack, and they don't like that at all. He didn't seem to mind the light bat on his belly though. I keep a four foot piece of PVC EMT pipe around for situations like this. I walked him on his right side because I bat right handed With the PVC pipe in my right hand, rope in my left, he went up and I gave him my home run swing.  He never reared again. Sad to say, what I think made the difference is it hurt him and he expected everything except that. As far as I know there were no lasting unintended consequences. I believe because we went through the "getting to know one another" process together. He showed me who he was and how he intended to act, and I let him show me step by step who he was. All I did is add a new step at the end he had never seen before. I think if I had started that first time with the pipe, I might have shocked him too much with pain. I think the key to not causing unintended damage when training is to go through the steps so the horse kind of trusts the process of the trainer's response to the horse's behavior. By the time I gave him the pipe, he knew I was sure to respond, unlike his owner. And I think he sensed that I would not quit, as I believe others had. So, in a way, he knew it was coming. We found the end of the line together. I think that's important. |
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Post by jimmy on Feb 5, 2016 22:44:50 GMT
That's a good story, HG. The problem comes when sending the horse home. I have seen it so many times. "You did what to my horse?" And they go home, with no instructions or help, and the horse reverts. So then you're the lousy trainer who did nothing for the horse. Then you hear someone is in the hospital.
It's interesting even in not so dangerous situations, to watch horses make people move their feet. It is a very horsey way of controlling other horses. You see horses that crowd and push, you see people always moving away from the horse.
A while ago I was asked to help with a difficult mare. She developed a habit of backing into people, which eventually turned to backing and kicking. On the longe, she would do this, and start running backwards. The more you whipped and slapped her, the more she did it, until no amount of pressure would change it, until she just felt like stopping on her own.
I was horseback, which was probably the safest place to be. I had a flag, and a rope, and a whip if need be. I was curious about what they told me about her. Sure enough, as I asked her to go, she turned her but and stopped. Then any attempt to send her on, she would start kicking. I rode up and slapped her ass several times as hard as I could, and it was completely ineffective. She had been there done that so many times, she just knew. So the next time I raised the flag and asked her to move, she started backing and kicking again, and I thought, why do the same thing, expecting different results. So I switched ends and clobbered her across the bridge of the nose as hard as I could with the flag. (A dressage whip with a square of nylon on the end)
It was complete shock and awe for her. It was so unexpected, it rocked her world. She just never even dreamed any thing like that could happen, I guess. So she ran off, mad, shaking her head. I let her go around there in the round pen a while until she stopped. When I lifted the flag, she moved off effortlessly into a canter as nice as you pleased.
Now I wouldn't teach any one you should hit a horse on the head for any reason. But in this one case, it was so effective, it was the exact thing that needed to be done.
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Post by horseguy on Feb 6, 2016 17:00:08 GMT
Another good story of communication with an unexpected punctuation. But, as you say, most people, and I think definitely most horse owners today, would think that was mean, etc. when it is so much more about the context than the content of the smack on the nose with the flag. I think if there is one big difference between an amateur and a professional trainer it is that professionals care little about the act or the thing, they are looking primarily at the surrounding context, which includes the horse's history, temperament, energy, and habits. That's the context.
I blame the Natural Horsemanship (note the caps) movement for this confusion. They came up with a one size fits all context and that relives horse owners of the responsibility of learning the uniqueness of their particular horse. Instead they are now permitted to think of the horse any way they like because people like Parelli told them about horseanalities and how horses need games, and a lot of other nonsense. After accepting this singular false version horse context, they can now call their horse their baby and be their "mom" and anthropomorphize the heck out of the horse. Now they can look only to the things the NH trainers were teaching and selling as the end all be all of training. In other words, it's now all content you can buy instead of learn in an individualistic way with each horse.
Real horse training is mostly context, like popping a horse unexpectedly on the nose, or going down a road with a horse and teaching each other that at the end we are both going to know one another better, and you (the horse) are going to learn that humans are in charge. That's the balance of the context, and it's balanced in favor of the human. The NH approach has shifted the context balance to the horse is entitled to be in charge.
So then the horse returns home after as professional trainer who is good at training, who does more than through the horse around. The owner has the other context of mom, and moving their feet when the horse wants them to, and being shoved by the horse's head. It does not take a horse long to figure out that the old context still applies with the owner, and very quickly the horse reverts. As Jimmy says, that's because the trainer couldn't make the training stick. In my while career I think I convinced one owner it was them undoing the training with how they relate, which cause the problem in the first place. |
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Post by jacki on Feb 6, 2016 21:06:28 GMT
I suppose I will never understand how people can entrust their beloved horse and their money to a trainer, see the results, then let the horse revert to bad behavior and not have a "light bulb" moment. They have eyes but do not see, apparently. I would suggest that a horse owner with a "problem" horse be encouraged to observe the retraining, but as quickly as that thought entered my mind, I realized that's a horrible idea. Keep up the good work, guys.
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Post by jimmy on Feb 7, 2016 2:16:51 GMT
Interesting this came up today. I was visiting friends at the Pomona horse expo, and ran into my old friend Pat, who had been in a photo op session after a demonstration. I haven't spoken to him since 1984, I think. We chatted a bit. It was awkward. He has to know how much I have criticized him publicly for creating lunatics. But our conversation was cut short by more eager fans wanting his autograph and a photo with him. He obviously baths and relishes in his fame. It seemed still sad to me. You must adore him, or he has no use for you.
There were also the other usual suspects of clinicians. Parelli, Clinton, Shiller, Cameron, Masterson, and Eitan Beth Halachmy, and others. They have minions. No wonder these expos are outside. I think all those egos would take the oxygen out an auditorium
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Post by rideanotherday on Feb 8, 2016 12:14:35 GMT
I've always been in the position of sending my horses for training, rather than taking horses in for training. I've learned a few things because of that. Not all trainers are created equal.
When people allow behaviors (like the rearing horse in Horseguys post) to escalate and the horse to start calling the shots, the trainer has to find the point where the it "costs" the horse more than the horse is willing to pay to exhibit a behavior. Extreme and dangerous behaviors that have become ingrained are rarely as easily extinguished as easily as the rearing behavior that Horseguy discussed.
There was a progression of increasingly more aggressive corrections that lead to horseguy "hurting" the horse. No, I don't believe lasting physical damage was done. BUT sometimes you have to hurt or intimidate a horse that has become a bully. It's not ideal. It's never what you want to do, but human life and safety have to come first.
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Post by rideforever on Feb 8, 2016 15:13:48 GMT
This brings back memories of my time as an assistant trainer. Oh, we saw it all! Most horses that came in had a case of the "But he's"
My horse is great to ride, but he bucks at the canter
I really love this horse, but he bites, kicks, can't be caught, runs you over, etc
I can remember a few challenges
One in particular was a Percheron/Warmblood cross. You couldn't lead him reliably, he'd learned to turn his big old head, throw his shoulder into you, and take off. He couldn't be worked in a round pen, his owner tried that, and he went straight through it and back to his stall. I wish they had send him for groundwork as a weanling when he was little enough to convince. Instead, they waited until he was 3 and damn near 18 hh.
I used my mare to teach him how to free lunge. If he got out of line, she would correct him. It was fun to watch him come along after that. By her example, he learned how to follow verbal directions, and I used her to teach him to pony, since trying to lead him on the ground was dangerous. Good thing she's a stout QH mare! Two weeks later, the owners came out and couldn't believe the change. My mare is a good trainer!
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Post by rideanotherday on Feb 8, 2016 15:40:48 GMT
Rearing starts as a problem with free forward movement, but it sounds like this horse had more of a case of intimidation.
We know what you did, and honestly Horseguy you KNOW that most people won't accept that sort of correction. They may not understand why you did what you did, and we all know that Fluffy's happy owner who created the monster you get paid to deal with won't be able to pull off that sort of correction once the horse is out of training anyway.
So let's hear about some other options that might have worked for this horse. Trying to aim for the fence isn't the only option, is it?
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Post by horseguy on Feb 8, 2016 17:11:59 GMT
This horse was big and seemed to enjoy dominating humans. He was very dangerous. The owner used an extra long lead rope to lead him, which allowed him to rear and threaten her. I tried all the other things I know but he just kept at it. I look at it as the horse deciding the course of action. He refused to get it with more typical messages/techniques and basically he projected to humans that he was dominant and you had best stand back. My job was to make him safe. I did my job in a way that the horse demanded.
I saw him about a year later at a big Horse Park competition. The owner had him ridden by a European professional rider. I walked up to their trailer to say hello. The owner, a woman, introduced me to the rider as a former trainer of the horse he was riding. Her manner was distant, but her husband gave be a warm welcome. I could tell he was thankful that his wife was no longer in danger.
By the way, this horse came to me from out of state. Years ago I was very flattered when I got an out of state horse to train, but then I realized that those horses, if not a referral, were sent out of state because every trainer in their area didn't want to deal with them. So, when they would say things to me like "we read your website and really thought this was the place to send him", they meant that no one would take him for training back home. He was a very dangerous horse. I fixed him. The woman wanted him safe but didn't want him disciplined. Not going to happen, and I burst her "cake and eat it too" bubble. She never thanked me. It was very risky to help her horse. That's how it often is. |
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Post by rideanotherday on Feb 8, 2016 17:38:46 GMT
This horse was big and seemed to enjoy dominating humans. He was very dangerous. The owner used an extra long lead rope to lead him, which allowed him to rear and threaten her. I tried all the other things I know but he just kept at it. I look at it as the horse deciding the course of action. He refused to get it with more typical messages/techniques and basically he projected to humans that he was dominant and you had best stand back. My job was to make him safe. I did my job in a way that the horse demanded.
I saw him about a year later at a big Horse Park competition. The owner had him ridden by a European professional rider. I walked up to their trailer to say hello. The owner, a woman, introduced me to the rider as a former trainer of the horse he was riding. Her manner was distant, but her husband gave be a warm welcome. I could tell he was thankful that his wife was no longer in danger.
By the way, this horse came to me from out of state. Years ago I was very flattered when I got an out of state horse to train, but then I realized that those horses, if not a referral, were sent out of state because every trainer in their area didn't want to deal with them. So, when they would say things to me like "we read your website and really thought this was the place to send him", they meant that no one would take him for training back home. He was a very dangerous horse. I fixed him. The woman wanted him safe but didn't want him disciplined. Not going to happen, and I burst her "cake and eat it too" bubble. She never thanked me. It was very risky to help her horse. That's how it often is. I get that you did what you had to do to make him safe. I want to discuss other things that are in the "bag of tricks" so to speak. If whacking him in the belly is the only trick in your bag, that's fine. I don't argue that it worked. I think that in his case it was appropriate. However, not everyone has a PVC pipe hanging around to whack a horse in the guts with. I'm not prone to hitting a horse...and I'm not sure I could have hit him hard enough for him to react the same way. When I think about the horse you described, my first thought is to humble him big time. I think Scotch hobbles may have been an option. Kind of hard for a horse to rear without the use of a hind leg. I have to use things that allow me to have an upper hand without relying on strength. |
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Post by horseguy on Feb 8, 2016 18:12:16 GMT
Typically the steps to stopping a horse from rearing when being lead on a rope are first, snapping the rope to apply nose pressure. This works quite well on young horses. They go up, you snap rope, they come down. After a few times they get that they will feel the nose pressure and they stop going up. Second, if the snap is ineffective, I move my body into a place of "leverage" so as to be able to pull them off balance from their side. Horses are weaker side to side with their neck muscles and if you place yourself in a optimum place next to them a little behind their shoulder, you can pull them off balance. This typically makes them feel vulnerable to being pulled to the ground, and I have pulled some to the ground. But some, like this big Frisian didn't blink when I tried to pull him off balance. I figured he had experienced this correction before and knew how to position himself with respect to the person leading him so as to avoid being pulled to the side.
Those are my two common corrections, nose pressure and pulling them off balance. Having failed at those options, I use a whiffle ball bat to tap their stomach to show them I know they become vulnerable when they come up in the front off the ground and expose their belly. But he didn't care if I touched the light weight bat on his stomach. He was one confident guy. So, my last resort was to cause some pain on his exposed belly so he would avoid the exposure to that pain. It worked.
If anyone has other means, I'd like to hear of how they do it. Keep in mind, because the nose pressure and pulling off balance techniques work so well, I kind of doubt many trainers have had to go further into things like the belly whack to stop a lead horse from rearing. I have only done this maybe a dozen times over many decades. You usually don't get into it that far as to need something extreme. |
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Post by rideanotherday on Feb 8, 2016 18:27:53 GMT
I've never dealt with a horse that extreme or dedicated to being a jerk.
I also have never put myself out there as a trainer. People make horses like that guy, it's rare to see them like that "out of the box". I hope he had plenty to offer as a show horse or something because that kind of danger to live with day in and out...not something I would want.
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Post by horseguy on Feb 8, 2016 18:40:27 GMT
I've never dealt with a horse that extreme or dedicated to being a jerk. I also have never put myself out there as a trainer. People make horses like that guy, it's rare to see them like that "out of the box". Yes, few horses are that aggressive or stubborn, but if you saw this owner's reaction of fear to his rearing, you could begin to see how it was a back-and-forth they developed together. She apparently "liked" being afraid on some level and he gave her what she liked. Kind of twisted, but more common that you might think. She trained him to be the way he was, not on purpose, but she trained him nonetheless. I used to hunt with a dentist who had a very dangerous horse. He was always off to the side of the field/group dealing with his "wild horse". One time I decided to go over to him and lean my very quiet horse against his "wild horse", knowing that it would probably quiet his horse. I rode up next to him and he said, "This is a dangerous horse, you don't want to be next to him". I said I felt OK about it and he seemed puzzled. His horse did calm down. It was then he rode away from me, and I understood he liked putting on his show of being a "great rider" of "wild horses" and I was ruining his show. People have very twisted agendas sometimes and they use a horse to create some idea of something I don't understand. |
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