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Post by lilyun on Feb 21, 2016 14:01:23 GMT
Thank you, everyone, for your encouraging words and compliments on Doc. I'm open to criticism and take no offense by information offered; after all, I asked for help! If you will notice in the photograph, although his rider has light or no contact (not my husband in the photo), the bit he uses is a twisted snaffle, pulled tight with a frown in the horse's lip creases. I do not agree with this. I use the Myler bitting system and have had a very high rate of success when transitioning a 'troubled' horse over to a Myler. The way we bit is little to no contact with the mouth corners and certainly NEVER any wrinkles. Two reasons: 1. Constant contact creates pressure sores. (this horse has scars on his corners) 2. If there is constant pressure, the horse won't feel my finger-light touches when cueing for change. I have a Myler comfort snaffle MB03 with hooks on a eggbutt and a HBT (short shank) I also have a SSshank with a high port... Haven't ventured there yet with Doc. Scott tends to ride two handed, so we may not get to a shank bit for quite awhile. This will be a slow process with Doc. Idk if he can feel such light contact... the hair doesn't grow on that part of his nose/mouth area anymore it's so scarred. It's a work in progress and I'll keep you guys posted. All old mannerisms and scars point to a hard handed ride for him. As for Scott, being a beginner, and a High Brow line horse... My eyes were huge and I was scared for Scott. I personally didn't want to have Scott partnered up with Doc.... So of course, men being men, he waved me off with a "Nahhhh...ppbbltttt... I got this" and he jumped on. I think I was talking like an Auctioneer trying to cram in how to ride a cow-horse with Doc's level of responsiveness. I had seen this horse work. I knew if Scott asked (intentionally or not) this horse is gonna give it to him. I have to say, at the end of our ride, I was impressed. I had never seen Scott canter outside of the ring. He and the gentleman in the photograph rode all over the place, doing circles around us girls who had lagged way far behind. (One of our horses was being led who had bruised his feet on the trail) The sound in the forest echoed of Scott's laughter. He was hooked. No pokey dead beginner horse was going to do it for him; Scott bought his first horse. Welcome Doc. I don't remember knowing a man connected with a horse like Scott has with Doc. He coos to him, gives him treats, tries his best to ride calmly, is reading, taking lessons and watching videos to improve his skills and knowledge. I'm proud of both of them. Of course it is a win-win for me. I have a younger horse who will follow Doc's lead and I now have a riding partner who loves the sport as much as I do. We look forward to our lessons and Scott, in particular, is excited to keep improving. Me?...I do what I can. Sometimes I'm a better sideline coach than I rider, but I'll keep trying. Happy Trails! I hope you all got to do some riding in this fair weather. j
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Post by horseguy on Feb 22, 2016 14:23:19 GMT
Contact and bitting are often thought if as mysterious processes. For me it comes down to mutual understanding between a horse and rider. This, I think, is because both the horse and the rider have preferences. There may be some baselines that are "in common" in a general way, but I think, each horse and each rider needs to find the middle between the two of them. Looking at riders, the inexperienced rider tends to want to hang on to the reins with heavier than necessary contact because it provides for them a feeling of safety not unlike resting your foot on the brake pedal, which can wear out your brakes just as it wears out a horse's mouth. The more a person rides, I believe, they feel it all happens behind the saddle. Eventually, a rider arrives at an awareness of the horse's hind foot falls in the halt or downward transition to the point of feeling the horse use the heel of the hoof to make an effective stop or transition. The most extreme example of this "feel" that I have experienced is in playing polo on a wet field with a horse wearing substantial heel calks. Polo being like basketball in it's up and down the field, stop-turn-and-go the other direction kind of play, we feel in an extreme halt the hind heel calks digging into a wet field and rolling up turf like a window shade. You sit in the saddle while you wait impatiently for the turf to stop rolling up under your horse so that you can turn to get back in the play. In those moments a rider can clearly feel that reins are not brakes, but rather that they can stiffen a horse so that he cannot reach under himself and grab the ground in the most effective way. A stiff horse will roll up more turn in a halt than a relaxed horse. This is because a stiff horse cannot direct his hind energy downward into the earth as well as a relaxed horse. The stiff horse becomes like a stone skipping across a pond.
Therefore, a rider must get to the point where he/she feels that the reins can be counter productive to a good halt. When I rode Doc, I gave him a complete set of cues that said halt, my weight, my hands and my preparation (starting at square zero) were all correct and he just blew me off. I think that meant that he did not recognize the series and combination of the cues I gave him. It also meant that I was clueless as to what he would recognize, but I do not want to do it his way because I do not want to reinforce the picture of the rider on Doc with his "feet up on the dashboard" and leaning back, which I believe is a balance that Doc thinks is part of a stop.
What I felt in Doc was a horse that likes to use his front feet in a halt, maybe primarily. I felt, in his half hearted halts, something like the drop of his inside shoulder "falling in" as he completes a turn. It was not dramatic that first time I rode him, but he seemed to want to use his shoulders more than most horses in just about everything. Horses will add in some front hoof ground grabbing in an extreme halt like on wet grass, but in my experience this is more to gain added stability than halting or grabbing of the ground. But with Doc I felt more like he trusts his shoulders more than his hind to accomplish different moves. All this has brought me in a rather intellectual way to a theory that the big overweight cowboy leaning back in the saddle limited Doc's use of his hind, and he compensated by using his shoulders more, and furthermore using his shoulders by throwing them around in order ot do his job.
The most positive work we did in the first ride was to ask for a canter out of backing up. He felt and looked great doing this. It was balanced, smooth and efficient. I am hoping that Doc will "discover" his hind more, now that Scott, who is not a heavy guy nor a rider who tends to throw a horse around, and enjoy using his whole body in a more integrated way. I think Doc is confused between familiarity and comfort. The former big rider could not have been comfortable and I think Doc never really has experienced the real comfort of unified balance and movement. The back-up to canter was maybe a beginning.
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Post by rideanotherday on Feb 22, 2016 14:54:15 GMT
Bits and bitting a horse should be a topic all it's own. Consider that in my balanced seat class we spent 2 lecture periods on that topic. That's a lot of lecture on bits and bitting.
Myler bits almost seem to have really gotten a cult like following, especially amongst the English set. I like them...sometimes. A good, hand made bit can be better at times. Depends on what the horse needs.
As far as where I'll hang a bit, it does depend on the action of the bit and the horse itself. I like to just get it to be held at the corner of the mouth and the horse can pick it up and hold it where he likes. I don't care for tons of equipment, so a cavesson (or "mouth shutter as one cowgirl friend of mine calls them) might come into play if I'm riding English, but I know I don't have it cranked down the way I have seen it on occasion. I like a horse to have a bit of choice in their own comfort and preference.
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Post by horseguy on Feb 22, 2016 17:48:07 GMT
Bits and bitting a horse should be a topic all it's own. Consider that in my balanced seat class we spent 2 lecture periods on that topic. That's a lot of lecture on bits and bitting. Mylar bits almost seem to have really gotten a cult like following, especially amongst the English set. I like them...sometimes. A good, hand made bit can be better at times. Depends on what the horse needs ...
Mylar bits are interesting. The material is very hard, almost like soft iron, but it gives a little on the surface, I think. Myler hammers are popular with metal forming artists.
I have never owned a Mylar bit. Not sue why, just old fashion I guess. I have seen them wear out and I don't buy many pieces of equipment that I know will wear out. A bit is only as good as the hands of the rider. I had the pleasure of knowing Sue Sally Hale, America's top woman polo player in the 70s and 80s. She liked a twisted wire snaffle bit, a bit few polo players will risk in the heat of competition, and she used that bit with great skill. I have always felt that to buy a twisted wire bit you should be required to take something like a driver's test and get a license. I'm a loose ring snaffle kind of guy but on older horses set in their ways I will mess with them by trying bits that touch them in different ways. I like how a gag bit can put varied pressure on the poll. I have always used them with two sets of reins, one set on gag rounds and another set the ring of the gag. The second pair goes through the ring like a draw rein. You can't attach a second set of reins on the ring itself of a ring gag because the attachment interferes with the rotation of the gag ring that is moved by the gag round reins. So you are forced to attach a second set of reins as you would draw reins from the saddle billets through the ring to your hands. In this setup, you can abandon the gag poll pressure by slipping the gag round reins, and use the bit with the second pair like a loose ring snaffle after the horse is balanced well. This set up is, by the way, quite popular with Argentine pros. If you do this use a dropped, not figure 8, nose band to stabilize the mouth piece. I keep thinking I want to try a gag rig on Doc. I want to tell him, "hey Doc, lift you head a tad when you move off or stop". I could lightly touch his poll and hopefully he would rise up into it a slight amount and he'd feel a distinctly more comfortable balance, plus he could feel the efficiency of more hind engagement. Maybe after a while when I know him better, and if Scott wants to try it, we will. I don't think it is a good idea to experiment with bits to fix issues, but sometimes it's a good learning experience for an older horse set in his ways to feel something new. The right special bit can point the way to different balances.
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Post by rideanotherday on Feb 22, 2016 18:03:22 GMT
Bits and bitting a horse should be a topic all it's own. Consider that in my balanced seat class we spent 2 lecture periods on that topic. That's a lot of lecture on bits and bitting. Mylar bits almost seem to have really gotten a cult like following, especially amongst the English set. I like them...sometimes. A good, hand made bit can be better at times. Depends on what the horse needs ...
Mylar bits are interesting. The material is very hard, almost like soft iron, but it gives a little on the surface, I think. Myler hammers are popular with metal forming artists.
I have never owned a Mylar bit. Not sue why, just old fashion I guess. I have seen them wear out and I don't buy many pieces of equipment that I know will wear out. A bit is only as good as the hands of the rider. I had the pleasure of knowing Sue Sally Hale, America's top woman polo player in the 70s and 80s. She liked a twisted wire snaffle bit, a bit few polo players will risk in the heat of competition, and she used that bit with great skill. I have always felt that to buy a twisted wire bit you should be required to take something like a driver's test and get a license. I'm a loose ring snaffle kind of guy but on older horses set in their ways I will mess with them by trying bits that touch them in different ways. I like how a gag bit can put varied pressure on the poll. I have always used them with two sets of reins, one set on gag rounds and another set the ring of the gag. The second pair goes through the ring like a draw rein. You can't attach a second set of reins on the ring itself of a ring gag because the attachment interferes with the rotation of the gag ring that is moved by the gag round reins. So you are forced to attach a second set of reins as you would draw reins from the saddle billets through the ring to your hands. In this setup, you can abandon the gag poll pressure by slipping the gag round reins, and use the bit with the second pair like a loose ring snaffle after the horse is balanced well. This set up is, by the way, quite popular with Argentine pros. If you do this use a dropped, not figure 8, nose band to stabilize the mouth piece. I keep thinking I want to try a gag rig on Doc. I want to tell him, "hey Doc, lift you head a tad when you move off or stop". I could lightly touch his poll and hopefully he would rise up into it a slight amount and he'd feel a distinctly more comfortable balance, plus he could feel the efficiency of more hind engagement. Maybe after a while when I know him better, and if Scott wants to try it, we will. I don't think it is a good idea to experiment with bits to fix issues, but sometimes it's a good learning experience for an older horse set in his ways to feel something new. The right special bit can point the way to different balances. I've ridden very few horses that did well in a gag bit. I do have a bit that I think Doc would work well in. It's a 3 piece mouth with a copper roller in the middle and very short shanks and relatively easy purchase (the purchase is the part of the bit that is above the mouth piece on the side, shanks are below the mouth piece). It's "loose jawed", meaning that the shanks move independently of each other. You can pick up one rein if you need to and use it to work on the inside shoulder (slight lift of rein and crowd the midline of the neck with your hand but don't cross it) firm inside leg, slightly in front of the neutral position of the leg and most horses will keep their shoulders where they belong. I don't like how the mouth on a Myler bit rusts and flakes. I feel like that could get rough on a horse's mouth and I'm not a fan of that.
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Post by lilyun on Feb 23, 2016 13:51:44 GMT
I hope the picture posts. I can't see the attachment... Oxidation of the sweet iron triggers salivation and keeps the horse's mouth moist; it also has a sweet taste to it with the striation of copper integrated into the mouthpiece. It has a slight give in the middle, swivels side to side for lateral flexion, and twists to work on only one side at a time. The bit also has a concavity that fits the natural shape of a horse's mouth, bars and tongue. MB04 has some tongue relief and rolls forward to encourage flexion at the pole. The hooks allow for more consistency with cues. Myler also makes the loose ring bits, too. Its a matter of preference. I worked with a mare that would bolt--nose in the air, resistant to any contact, a real peach. She nearly killed my riding friend when she took off in the woods and came up way too fast on a 90 degree turn on the trail. Lauren flew over the horse's head when the horse tried to turn and went down on her knees. Lauren wouldn't ride her after that. I took the mare under training with this Myler bit mentioned above. She became like a western pleasure horse. Soft, smooth, compliant. (I am not afraid of hot horses, so that helped). She actually turned out to be a nice horse, but was trained by a "cowboy" hard handed, spur and dig to get a response. Regardless, the mare was sold. Lauren could not get over her fear. We saw video of this mare in her new home. Despite warning them of her speed and not liking a broken bit...they didn't listen. They ran her on the barrels---the mare ran out of the arena, wouldn't stop and ran into the side of a trailer: BOOM!! That's how much that horses hated her mouth being yanked on. I wouldn't be surprised to see that mare end up in a slaughter auction b/c "she's evil." It makes me sad and frustrated they didn't listen. Anyhow, on our last ride two days ago, Scott was able to get Doc to stop MUCH better with his seat, a verbal cue and then the reins. Its not perfect...and if we're cantering then transition to a stop, he's still a work in progress, but we're getting there. Scott got him to take both leads. To ride it took try number 2 before he got it, but got it they did. Again, thanks for the advice. We're applying it and seeing progress one step at a time. Attachments:
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Post by rideanotherday on Feb 23, 2016 13:56:35 GMT
I think "cowboys" get a bad rap sometimes. I've seen some that are hard handed and indifferent riders at best, but others are pure magic to watch and really have a gift with horses.
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Post by horseguy on Feb 29, 2016 16:19:22 GMT
I keep thinking about this picture. That's a heavy rider, leaning back, feet out front, not centered from front to back. When I try to feel how that weight would feel from a horse's perspective, I feel like it would effectively limit what I could do with my hind feet (as a horse) to balance that load, AND work cattle. I would (as a horse) have to use my front feet to have any sort of agility because my hind feet would feel "strapped down" to the ground. This alone would explain this horse's preferences of movement, I think.
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Post by rideanotherday on Feb 29, 2016 16:47:46 GMT
I keep thinking about this picture. That's a heavy rider, leaning back, feet out front, not centered from front to back. When I try to feel how that weight would feel from a horse's perspective, I feel like it would effectively limit what I could do with my hind feet (as a horse) to balance that load, AND work cattle. I would (as a horse) have to use my front feet to have any sort of agility because my hind feet would feel "strapped down" to the ground. This alone would explain this horse's preferences of movement, I think. The things I see in that picture: The back cinch is too loose. If you are going to rope off a horse with the back cinch that low when the cow hits the end of the rope that's going to essentially punch the horse in the guts. If you aren't roping and have it that loose, it's a place where branches can get caught up or a hoof. Nothing but train wrecks to be had. I agree that in this picture the rider is well on their back pockets and it's likely impeding the horse's movement. Does he carry his head that high when you pitch him some slack and just let him move?
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