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Post by horseguy on Feb 19, 2016 12:46:55 GMT
I rode a horse yesterday that was a good horse but it was obvious he had not been ridden well. He is a 13 yr. old QH gelding that had a job working cattle. He is now a trail horse and his rider/owner wants to improve as a rider and wants the horse to improve. This horse has a hard mouth and is heavy on the forehand. He is very confident, with a "Don't bother me, I know what I am doing" kind of attitude. He is hyper vigilant in how he wants a cue to do something. He has a hard time just being still or going a long in a straight line in an arena. I am told on a trail he is more relaxed. His most annoying issues are he drops his inside shoulder to complete a turn and he does not respond well to a halt cue. When I corrected him, he sulked.
I think the first thing to do is to balance him better and to get him to realize life does not need to be so intense. The balance issue relates to the Line of Impulsion topic. This horse travels with a horizontal line of impulsion. We did some backing up into a canter transition drills with him and he did improve his reach under his belly and used his butt, which is nice, more effectively. He cantered off with stronger hind impulsion, but soon reverted to his heavy front end balance.
This work brought up how horses can confuse comfort and familiarity. He is familiar with pulling with his shoulders and being on his forehand, and thus it feels "comfortable". My hope is after he does more reaching under and pushing off with his hind that he will feel a more authentic comfort and that will replace his old familiar feeling of being unbalanced.
Thoughts? Ideas?
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Post by rideforever on Feb 19, 2016 16:04:13 GMT
Well, if he's a cow horse, I can give you a different exercise to help get him working of his back end. Lope a half circle, stop(not halt, but sit down into him and ask him to stop like he's used to). Back up a few steps, lope off. Ride a half circle, stop, back up, lope off. He's used to being busy, so if he's got time to sulk, he's not busy enough
Will write more later. I have rode plenty of cow horses and started some as well
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Post by rideforever on Feb 19, 2016 16:29:29 GMT
A cow horse does not do an English halt. The cues are slightly different. To ask him to stop, push your feet forward slightly, roll your backside onto your pockets, sit down into him, say woah. Don't touch those reins unless he blows through those cues. If he does, then back him up, and put a little hustle into his feet. Cow horses are given a lot of responsibility to do the work, with little intervention from the rider.
Do you ride him on a loose rein? If you haven't tried that, you might find a different horse
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Post by horseguy on Feb 19, 2016 17:20:26 GMT
He was a cow horse and now he needs to learn a new job. I am not sure that doing anything "his way" is going to help him move on. He projects an attitude of being annoyed at the training, like "leave me alone and let me do my job". I am trying to break it to him that he was fired from that cow job.
What would you do to transition him away from his old ways? He's 13.
I have retrained countless TB off the track and I'd say about 40% of them "believe in" their former training. They think they are right and the trainer is wrong when retraining begins. Another 40% or so are just confused, glad to be off the track but a little whacked out about there not being a starting gate and an inside rail. And then there is the 20% who say to a re-trainer, "Thank God! I always knew that racing stuff was wrong. Thanks for making sense." This horse believes in his prior training, and what I do with this type is use persistence to set new standards.
One specific question. He turns nicely on the inside leg but a little past half completing a 90 degree turn, he drops his inside shoulder and completes the turn by falling in, as we would say in English riding. Are there western trainers who will teach a horse to do this? Is it permitted? I find it really annoying. |
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Post by rideforever on Feb 19, 2016 18:10:21 GMT
Dropping a shoulder isn't allowed in Western either
Counter canter the circle, if he's really convinced that he knows his job, you're going to have to give him a reason to listen. Ask him to do really challenging things that he's going to need help to do.
Or if he wants to drop that inside shoulder, lean to the inside. If he falls over, he will figure out that he needs to keep that shoulder up.
But all of his training says he needs to be independent of his rider. If you peck at him, he will really brace against you, so get in, make your correction and then leave him be when he's doing it right
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Post by horseguy on Feb 19, 2016 18:35:08 GMT
He's really left leaded. We were in a huge indoor arena with high solid rails like a rodeo arena. I was doing big circles and asking for a left to right lead change. "leave me alone" was his response.
I cantered him left in a 20 meter circle in the center of the arena and move each circle closer to the wall until the circle would have to go through the wall to stay round. About three strides out from the wall on a left lead he tried to duck in to the left to avoid the wall. I held him on the line going toward the wall at about 45 degrees off perpendicular. Then two strides away from bashing into the wall I half halted him and turned him to the right with a lot of leg and some rein. He had a choice of getting under himself and rolling into a right turn or hitting the wall pretty much on the perpendicular. He did a nice right turn and a flying lead change onto his right lead. He was pissed. After two strides on the right lead he just quit on me. I didn't have spurs or a whip, but if I did I would have kept him in the right lead canter.
This might come under your heading of "Ask him to do really challenging things that he's going to need help to do" but I was helping him change, not just leads but understanding that he'd best listen to what I am explaining. |
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Post by rideanotherday on Feb 19, 2016 20:12:58 GMT
He was a cow horse and now he needs to learn a new job. I am not sure that doing anything "his way" is going to help him move on. He projects an attitude of being annoyed at the training, like "leave me alone and let me do my job". I am trying to break it to him that he was fired from that cow job.
What would you do to transition him away from his old ways? He's 13.
I have retrained countless TB off the track and I'd say about 40% of them "believe in" their former training. They think they are right and the trainer is wrong when retraining begins. Another 40% or so are just confused, glad to be off the track but a little whacked out about there not being a starting gate and an inside rail. And then there is the 20% who say to a re-trainer, "Thank God! I always knew that racing stuff was wrong. Thanks for making sense." This horse believes in his prior training, and what I do with this type is use persistence to set new standards.
One specific question. He turns nicely on the inside leg but a little past half completing a 90 degree turn, he drops his inside shoulder and completes the turn by falling in, as we would say in English riding. Are there western trainers who will teach a horse to do this? Is it permitted? I find it really annoying. No. Dropping a shoulder isn't permitted or encouraged. He should keep his shoulders upright and lift them to allow his hindquarters to engage. He's probably over fed and under exercised and has been for a while. No pasture puff / trail horse needs a high octane feeding program, which often (not saying this is the case) leads to too much poorly handled energy. I'm guessing that's why he's in for retraining. With him, I would probably start with loping him until he's really blowing hard. He'll want to find a way to get a chance to rest and get to be a lot more amenable to suggestions and corrections. You could also go back to the ground work and lay down some pathways into his head by teaching him to be a successful partner. Depends on where he learned to be resistant. It could be that's a problem for him too. What is he being rode in? What was he being rode in? I suspect it has less to do with how hard mouthed he is and more to do with his temperament. I understand that his life and training need to change, but right now you are being a lot like him. Resistant to suggestions. You clearly have a successful program that has worked for you for years. However, it's worth it to remember that all roads lead to Rome. It might not be the originally planned route, but success is what counts, right? I'd fix the training holes in the "programming" he has first...and then start moving the training to match what you want him to do. It's ok to speak his language to get into his head and start to make him think and buy in. I believe that would be less frustrating for both of you. I have the benefit of "speaking" both Western and English when it comes to riding. They aren't all that far apart but to a horse, that could be worlds of difference. Right now, you don't appear to have this horse ready to buy in to your method. You'll probably wear him down eventually, but wouldn't it be cool for him to come to that decision without the strife and stress? I have a couple of exercises that I would use to help this horse that work in both saddles. It's going to take me a while to write them up, so bear with me. |
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Post by horseguy on Feb 19, 2016 21:41:51 GMT
"I understand that his life and training need to change, but right now you are being a lot like him. Resistant to suggestions." You know, I have heard that before.  |
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Post by rideanotherday on Feb 20, 2016 1:17:37 GMT
"I understand that his life and training need to change, but right now you are being a lot like him. Resistant to suggestions." You know, I have heard that before. Well, I'm close. I am a set of eyes on the ground. I might see something you aren't feeling. I would be willing to drive up and have a look and offer what experience I have with cowhorses. Up to you. |
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Post by Laura on Feb 20, 2016 1:27:05 GMT
As you know, I have trained that out of a few horses, like Blaze and Mac. They didn't take too long to train because they were both very willing horses. Seeing as this horse is very stubborn and set in his ways, it may take a little longer, and a little more patience. Transitions definitely play a large role in the process. They are very good to repeat over and over. I would start with gradual arcs/bends and slowly made them tighter and tighter/smaller and smaller. I used downward spirals a lot, especially with transitions mixed in. I am kinda light, so I put almost all of my weight in the outside stirrup/seat bone and I wouldn't let them drop their head. Most of the time, I would hold my inside rein higher around a corner when they would start to put it down. The reason I think it takes so much patience is because when you're trying to do exercises like a downward spiral, if they start pulling, sometimes its best to start the exercise over, or part of it. It definitely tests how much patience you have. From my experience, it does take at least a couple months. I do think its good that its spring, because doing downhill work when it is muddy and slick out also worked well. Again, for this, I would start at a walk and when I was confident that the horse could do it well at that gait, I would transition to the next, etc. After a couple months of this when the horse started to get better I would do more advanced exercised with them, like jumping downhill, sliding down banks and things you would find in cross country, foxhunting, etc. This is kind of just something that I like to use with horses like this that pull and drop their shoulders, etc. These exercises are obviously good for any horse as well, especially field horses. I think this is a relatively easy routine to adjust to each particular horse. Some horses need more of one thing or less of another, or even something completely different. Something that I didn't include that I find very helpful occasionally is riding bareback. I find that with older horses, you have to ride them pretty frequently, especially if other people are riding them. They tend to revert back to their old ways. I think after a couple months, they start to get easier to tune up/its easier to remind them what's right. Again, this is a very adjustable routine. I hope all goes well with this horse. He sounds like a horse with a lot of ability. Working with stubborn horses is never easy, but at least its never boring.
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Post by lilyun on Feb 20, 2016 12:49:40 GMT
Hello All: I've known this horse for nearly two years. Allow me to clarify some characteristics about Doc, an AQHA foundation bred 14.2H 13yo, gelding. He comes from one of the hottest (temperament) lines of cow horses there is in our current pedigrees: High Brow lineage. These are the cow horses you see getting down on their knees, shaking in anticipation of darting left or right to counteract the calf. Doc has that same quickness. (Horseguy has kindly and graciously entered into our horse world and has taught myself and my husband a great many things in a short period of time. He was just introduced to Doc for the first time a few days ago.) Doc was a work horse: Not shows, not pampered, not kept in a neat stall with an indoor arena. He worked and was excellent at his job. He was the 'go-to' horse that every ranch hand wanted when there was no time to mess around on a job that needed done. Up until a month ago, he still had that job. He's not a 'fat, lazy, over-fed trail horse'. He maintains his weight on good hay and pasture. At his current location, there is no pasture, so he is being supplemented on 1lb of whole oats with a vitamin supplement twice a day. (We can debate whole oats in a different thread.) My husband is a beginner rider, but he LOVES Doc. In his own words: "Doc is like riding a dirt bike with legs." This horse WILL outride any horse on the trail or in with cows. In the show ring? Forget it. He's not a typey show QH with more TB than anything else. He's a bulldog shaped power house. He is used to getting the saddle flung on, tightened, canter off and work. Working ranch hands don't think about horses in the same way as most "east coast" show ring riders do. They need a job done...now. Having said all the above garble-lee-gook, my husband wants Doc to chill and enjoy the ride. At 11 (when we first met Doc) the former owner wanted him to retire from working. A younger horse in training has come up in the ranks to take his place. We trail ride...not a grassy flat path, but in the mountains, down steep ravines, off the beaten path where most people do not have the confidence to ride. I fell in love with Doc when I saw how he made my husband smile and LAUGH. He never has to worry about sure-footedness or lack of confidence with Doc. Doc takes care of him and therefore enhances Scott's confidence to keep trying more things. That's HUGE in a beginner rider, or heck, in any level rider. Confidence makes the rider; a confident rider and horse makes teamwork. They have become a team. So, yes, Doc drops his shoulder. Yes, Doc has been ridden in a plain snaffle his whole life...we're working on changing him over to a Myler comfort snaffle with a 1" purchase and a 1 1/2" shank. I don't care for broken bits that collapse. If that isn't the one, then I have a high port Myler which will offer the great tongue relief in any of the bits I have in my arsenal. (Yet another thread topic) He's always been ridden with spurs...not the nasty spikey rowels, but a cloverleaf. We find he doesn't need them, unless you want to find that extra gear where he'll spin out from under you. Doc has made huge strides: he no longer dances off, jigging when Scott first gets on. We always WALK for the first 15 minutes with no rein contact at all. As long as he stays in a walk, fast or slow, he isn't corrected. Eventually, he slows his pace and realizes, "Oh hey...no ones cantering me off. What's my hurry?" He's easy to catch, tack, shoe, trailer. Reading the thread, there are many ideas that we've already applied, so it is nice to have the affirmation that we are heading in the right direction with Doc. Horseguy has afforded us an opportunity to now understand the science behind why Doc is doing what he is doing. Scott is learning by the bucket-fulls and is excited to apply and practice his newly acquired understanding. (including walk trot with lots of transitions riding bareback) So, thank you all for your insight. We look forward to a riding season full of opportunity and fun filled times with friends both new and old. ![]()  ![]() |
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Post by rideanotherday on Feb 20, 2016 13:48:45 GMT
Lilyun...Thanks for the history of Doc. That clarifies things a lot. We were only given current behaviors, so that's what we answered to.
Horses like Doc need a job. Putting a beginner rider on a horse like him, well, it's not ideal. That doesn't mean it can't work,especially if the beginner rider is getting lessons and help. The lack of fear and enjoyment of the speed will also help.
The things you outline - walking first etc are all good ways to help him find some inner peace.
Those High Brow horses are typey and pretty enough to go to show, you just need to find the right one! They have ranch riding etc. You don't have to have a horse that looks like a TB to show. Lord knows I never had that and it didn't stop me!
If he's only a month off of being a working man, it's going to take a bit of time.
Horseguy, think of this a lot like letting down an OTTB. Being familiar with cutting horses, I can tell you that it's not far off.
As to why he's got a hard mouth...oof. Not all cowboys are created equal. His history as a worker and the "go to" horse and being the pick of the pen, he may not always have been picked by someone with kind hands. It's not a requirement. Best news is, as a feelie type horse, he will probably respond well to kind hands. The tough part will be convincing him that's how it's going to be and that he can trust it.
Does he drop both shoulders? Is it more to one direction? Has he been evaluated by a vet or chiro? Some of this could be explained by pain. Easier to train a sound body, for sure.
Lilyun, I minored in equine nutrition. Please do start the conversation rolling about whole oats! (My feeling is there are better choices, but oats aren't the devil.)
And for everyone who gets any kind of upset over what other people are writing, the answers given are based on whatever information is given and the interpretation of what is written. I
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Post by jacki on Feb 20, 2016 16:45:37 GMT
Lilyun, he's beautiful! He looks very alert and ready to go at a split second's notice - my daughter Laura (her post is above) would love to ride such a horse. She is a field rider and, like your husband, loves to go fast. It is worth the effort to train him to "push" from the hind instead of "pulling" with his shoulders and not to drop his shoulder, particularly with the terrain you ride. Be patient, and ENJOY!
p.s. Maybe Horseguy can show you how to safely slide him down a steep trail. He reminds me of a draft cross mare, part Tennessee Walker, Laura used to ride. She had similar pulling and shoulder dropping issues, but she was very sure-footed. She would go anywhere and loved to go fast. (And yes, she learned to "push" and stop dropping her shoulder.)
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Post by horseguy on Feb 20, 2016 18:41:58 GMT
"I understand that his life and training need to change, but right now you are being a lot like him. Resistant to suggestions." You know, I have heard that before. Well, I'm close. I am a set of eyes on the ground. I might see something you aren't feeling. I would be willing to drive up and have a look and offer what experience I have with cowhorses. Up to you. Sure, come on up sometime. I started this forum because I finally quit the farm. I knew the only way I'd stop living such a physically demanding life was to move to a place with not much to do. I looked forward for years to a time when I wasn't always feeling like I was playing catch up with the farm work and when I could think about horses in a relaxed way and learn more. I was always trying to maximize my time with horses so I could give client's their money's worth. I posted recently that I got away from ground work as the years wore on. That was because I felt I could give more bang for the buck if I worked someone's horse from the saddle. It's an adjustment for me to think about working slower with a horse. Which isn't to say I rushed horses, because I don't think I rushed but I was obsessive about the efficiency and effectiveness of every moment. I felt it was wasting precious time to allow a horse be defiant in training. I was intense but I could tell when I was too much for a horse. When I saw that happening I'd ask some of the students to work that type of horse more than I would work it. As Laura mentioned, she helped me with the draft cross when I would have blown that horse's fuses. Now I am "retired". I am working on building a brick oven on the back of an old skid loader trailer. I ride every week once or twice, but not six days a week anymore. I have the luxury of listening to other people's opinion and I am trying to be more open. When I ask for opinions or suggestions I am sincerely trying to listen, but old habits die hard. I'm trying. Thanks for your help. |
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Post by horseguy on Feb 20, 2016 23:21:17 GMT
I tend to not want to use equipment changes to help a horse in re-training, but I have an urge to try a gag bit with this horse. We use a lot of ring gags in polo. I like how they work in balancing a horse at speed. Thoughts? |
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