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Post by horseguy on Sept 16, 2015 0:23:56 GMT
... is there a routine "progression" in bridling? You mentioned starting out with a simple snaffle bit. We would love to attend a bit clinic. I think my daughter would agree, the simpler the better. However, we would love to become more educated in different "rigs" and the reasons behind them. There's a LOT of gear out there, and someday my daughter may buy her own horse, and the info would be helpful. Then we'll have to start a post about what to look for when buying a horse!
I started this topic as a response to Jacki's question. I learned a sequence when I was young of bitting when training a young horse. What I learned was step (1) no bit, which meant a Hackamore or snap reins on a halter, then (2) and snaffle and eventually, (3) a bit specific to the work the horse must do with consideration of the unique horse's head carriage, impulsion, and many other factors. The general rule was to use the least harsh bit at every step, but one that had a result useful result.
Like most things English, my training, it was very "this is how e do it". I would love to hear more about the western process of bitting young horses, as well as retraining a horse and dealing with bitting in that process.
A story (people who know me know I love to tell stories, an Irish trait) ... many years ago a woman of about 40 years brought me a horse to retrain that reared. She owned this horse for years and "it just started rearing". Strange, I thought. She brought the horse to me and the tack and the bridle had a bit that looked almost exactly like this.
I let the horse settle in and in a day or so I tacked him up with the bridle he came with and rode him. I was just walking him out in a warm up the first ride, I just "touched" the reins and he reared. I immediately learned it was the bit that set him off into rearing. So, I took him to the barn, found a simple snaffle bit bridle, put it on him and we went back out. He was a great horse to ride. We went out on the cross country course and did a bunch of things, no problems. I called her and said he was done, and asked her to come pick him up. She came the next day and was very suspicious. She made me ride him first. He was fine, then we went for a ride with her on him. B he end she was almost giggling. She loaded him up and I asked her how she came to use that bit. She explained that her 15 year old daughter "who was a good rider" suggested it, and before he went well in a snaffle.
This is one of my favorite, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" tales. The wrong bit can cause a whole lot of problems and pain. It's also a lesson in listening to young riders who don't have experience.
So, please respond.
... is there a routine "progression" in bridling? You mentioned starting out with a simple snaffle bit. We would love to attend a bit clinic. I think my daughter would agree, the simpler the better. However, we would love to become more educated in different "rigs" and the reasons behind them. There's a LOT of gear out there, and someday my daughter may buy her own horse, and the info would be helpful. Then we'll have to start a post about what to look for when buying a horse!
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Post by visitingposter on Sept 17, 2015 15:07:19 GMT
I bought a horse this summer that was supposed to be trained but he constantly move his head all over the place. My instructor asked me if the bitless bridle I bought came with my horse. He came with a big snaffle bit that I thought was too harsh, which is why I bought the bitless bridle. My instructor told me to try the bit he came with to see if it stopped the head moving around all the time. It helped a lot. She told me that he was looking for the bit. He's 12 years old and she said he was used to a bit and that a horse his age wasn't going to change much so I am using the bit. I guess that makes sense. He doesn't toss his head anymore.
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barbarafox
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Post by barbarafox on Sept 22, 2015 18:19:06 GMT
My bit progression with an untrained horse is always no bit first. I especially like using a leather side pull, which I can also use for lunging since it has a jowl strap. (I found the giant picture below online) After my horse is going well I'll have him in a snaffle, usually a 3 piece that is not fat and is very smooth. The three piece (french link as opposed to Dr.Bristol) conforms to the horse's mouth with less nutcracker action. I like thinner rather than fatter because many horses do not have room in their mouths for a fat bit and I have no intention of grabbing him with my bit. I have had horses who have never worn anything but a smooth snaffle bit and died at a happy old age. I've also had horses in full bridles and others in spade bits after they progressed through bosal- all according to requirements for showing. The ones that wore the high powered bits did not wear them at home except to become comfortable in them. They all wear snaffles or bitless at home. Many of my lesson horses go in bitless bridles although I find the one that crosses under the chin very difficult for beginners to put on the horse. Leather side pulls are easier to put on the horse and stay very steady. I really dislike cruel bits and the thought that we should control the horse through the bit- I could definitely rant about that. I suppose we could discuss what constitutes a cruel bit- a leading statement!  Interesting to me is that English horses are bitted with the snaffle producing a wrinkle or two in the corner of the mouth while western horses are bitted in the snaffle with no wrinkle at all because they are taught to carry the bit. To produce a rant, ask me how I feel about people who lunge their horse off the bit- but lunging is really off topic here! |
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Post by horseguy on Sept 22, 2015 20:25:29 GMT
... I really dislike cruel bits and the thought that we should control the horse through the bit- I could definitely rant about that. I suppose we could discuss what constitutes a cruel bit- a leading statement! Interesting to me is that English horses are bitted with the snaffle producing a wrinkle or two in the corner of the mouth while western horses are bitted in the snaffle with no wrinkle at all because they are taught to carry the bit... |
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Post by jimmy on Sept 23, 2015 17:04:56 GMT
This is an enormous subject matter of which there are many aspects.
I visited Barbara's site, and I like the idea of preserving American Horsemanship. There is much to be proud of.
I come from a different vantage point, and that is the western tradition of the California Bridle horsemen, from the tradition of the Spanish Vaqueroes that came out of the mission system in California. It is really the birthplace of the bridle horse and the stock horse, although Texas had a huge influence as well.
There is a resurgence of interest in the older style stock horse of California. A lot of these techniques came before the snaffle showed up out west. The idea of lightness and responsiveness and quickness, the "trigger reined" horse has become very appealing to many newcomers.
The horses are started in a bosal, and taught most everything they will need to know in it. Maybe for two years. The are then ridden in a two rein system, with a smaller bosal used underneath a spade bit they learn to carry while you continue to use the bosal.
The spade is one of those bits that are sometimes characterized as cruel. Because it's function is not understood.
Without going into great detail about it, I present this argument to the "oh my gawd look at that horrible bit!" opinion.
The horses were started in a hackamore to protect the horses mouth, which is considered sacred, to develop the horse light to the bit, with an attractive carriage. Why would horsemen so concerned with protecting the mouth of a young horse, then invent a cruel and torturous bit to follow that? You see, it doesn't make sense that they would. Because that was not the intention to hurt the mouth at all.
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barbarafox
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Riding Instructor for a long time
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Post by barbarafox on Sept 27, 2015 18:04:00 GMT
Yes but....(smiling) any bit can be cruel in the wrong hands. A correct spade bit is balanced so that when the horse carries himself correctly the bit is not engaged, that's why we have the horse carry the bit while he is being worked in the bosal. The horse learns that any pain from the bit comes as a result of carrying himself incorrectly. In principal that is easy to understand and I've trained young horses that way as well...but...good spade bits are rare and expensive (but not unattainable) and what is even more rare is the rider that understands the spade bit and can use it correctly. I'm pretty sure that it is not the correct rider using correct principals that is the problem, but the inept
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barbarafox
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Riding Instructor for a long time
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Post by barbarafox on Sept 27, 2015 18:38:24 GMT
Jimmy- Normally I would just answer you and leave things alone but I just reread your post and want to be sure I understand what you are saying. Since I haven't figured out how to use the "quote" feature of this forum I'll use the old cut and paste method. Am I understanding from your statement "The idea of lightness and responsiveness and quickness, the "trigger reined" horse has become very appealing to many newcomers." that you are encouraging newbies in the horse world to ride spade bit horses? In your opinion how long or how well should a person ride before you turn him loose on a trigger reined horse wearing a spade bit?
Also, in keeping with the 'working well together' type of atmosphere Bob is hoping for, it would be nice to know who you are and what your experience is. If you are truly trained and seasoned in " the tradition of the Spanish Vaqueroes " (you might want to check out your spelling here) I have a few genuine questions for you and you might be able to impart valuable knowledge to the group. So how about it?
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Post by jimmy on Sept 27, 2015 20:01:14 GMT
i don't pretend to possess any special knowledge. I have been riding and training horses for over 30 years. My focus was always the California cowhorse. Although I have dabbled in many disciplines, including some jumping and eventing training. I have been starting young horses for forty years anyway.
It has only been in the last few years, say five or so, that I have explored a whole new depth and approach, and it has been very stimulating for me. I find that my riding and training lately have been as much experimental and exploratory as any thing else. But I think I am closer to a "right track" than I have ever been. And there is reaffirmation among my peers who I share insight with. I also ask a lot of questions.
I put some utube videos together a couple of years ago, and even now I see them and feel I have advanced past them, that they don't even represent what I have found since.
I acquired a 4 year old filly, barely halter broke, that I turned into a project. I haven't updated what I have done for a year now. I plan to.
To understand the spade, and the hackamore, a person should really know what the finished product (never really finished) is like to ride, and just what the kind of horse we are making is supposed to be. What can be achieved riding in one hand is remarkable. I have learned a whole new appreciation for straightness.
The spade is surprisingly forgiving actually. It is constructed actually to protect the mouth. The balance of the spade, along with the weight of the reins, and then the change of these balances, is what we are trying to work off of, in the form of signals, and not so much leverage. We are not pushing our horses into the bit. In the hackamore, that is actually the last thing you want to do. But to make a good spade horse, you have to have a good hackamore horse.
I almost think it is just as bad to put a uneducated rider in a hackamore, as it is in a spade. At least a spade bit horse, theoretically, would be well trained enough to tolerate some mistakes. But you better be able to ride!
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Post by jimmy on Sept 27, 2015 20:16:09 GMT
Me sitting on my two reined horse, "Lucky  |
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Post by rideanotherday on Nov 18, 2015 18:37:40 GMT
There is a progression in bridling...but it's not just about bridles and bits.
Bakeries will often "mock up" the decorations on cakes on empty cardboard boxes. They do this to save some time and money especially for wedding cakes so people can see what the cake is going to look like on their happy day. Something similar happens in the horse world when people "neck rein" a horse without doing all the foundation work that goes into a truly well-broke, finished, one-handed horse.
I can present a perfect example. Several years ago, I purchased a 2 year old buckskin POA gelding for my daughter, who was 9 at the time. (I know, I know...green riders and green horses do not mix). The guy riding this pony through the ring had that pony riding one handed in a solid shanked bit. That pony was pretty desensitized to just about everything and really had learned how to accept everything thrown at him. There were some holes, as one might expect. Knowing that a 2 y/o horse with 30 days of training that's "neck reining" might have some skills to work on, I arranged with a trainer for another 60 days of training. That 60 days, as you can imagine, was spent filling in holes in the training such as lateral flexion and yielding hindquarters.
Someone reading this might say, "But you can't neck rein a horse that doesn't know how to flex laterally (or vertically) or yield hindquarters!" You would be correct in a sense. That pony was just like that mock up of a cake! He had a bunch of frosting on a cardboard box. Sure, he had learned how to navigate obstacles and get pushed around by reins against his neck and get kicked on. He was no better than he should have been, considering the training methods used. That pony did have some major upsides though, he was absolutely fearless on trail and in the arena. He was also very patient. He had too much of a sense of humor and had the same attention span that his handler had, which is where he and my daughter ran into problems. She doesn't have much of one and there were some communication disconnects because of it.
That's what training for the both of them was for.
Ideally, a horse will be progressed in a logical (for the horse) manner, so that each skill it learns builds upon other skills. For instance, to teach a horse to neck rein, you start with teaching lateral flexing, which leads to vertical flexion. Then you teach the horse to respond to leg cues to gain control of their bodies. You begin to use rein cues in conjuction with leg cues. Each maneuver you ask the horse to learn builds upon previous skills. Leg aids help a horse learn how to follow an indirect rein aid. Leg aids and indirect rein aids are the beginning of neck reining...see how this all adds up? These skills (by no means an exhaustive list) add up to the "cake" to go under the "frosting".
It's kind of daunting all of the skills that need to be in place to progress a horse.
This is not the only example out there of a trainer/rider that sees the end result (neck reining) and doesn't look any farther. The concept of "headset" is also an end result that people see and accept as "what they want" and look no further. Getting a horse to carry itself and maintain a soft jaw, accepting the bit and it's input is a result of body control, not head control as many people would like it to be. Gimmicks abound! People will use different bits to affect head carriage, as well as any number of martingales, tie downs, cables and other training devices. Short-term, these "tools" will mask the issue. The real answer is found in the training. Lateral flexion leads to vertical flexion. Body control leads to muscle strength. Timing, tempo and feel lead to using body control and vertical flexion appropriately to teach the horse how to carry itself properly, with respect to its abilities as allowed by it's conformation.
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