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Post by rideanotherday on Mar 31, 2016 11:50:45 GMT
I watched a video that prompted me to start thinking about not just what we do for corrections, but why and when we correct. To sum up the article and video, a top level rider was in the warm up pen / schooling ring and her horse stumbled and almost went down. She strongly "corrected" the horse for stumbling. Here's the article with video. I know I'm not a top level rider. I know I'm not showing this type of horse. BUT...what the ever-loving hell??? The horse brought himself out of a stumble that should have dumped the both of them. And she yanks on his face and kicks him strongly. The statement that her goal was "to wake him up" just drives me up a wall. The horse was perhaps being too relaxed and not paying attention to his feet. Corrections that might be more appropriate (for me, based on what I know) would be to find some rails and place them at alternating distances. To hustle his feet and back him up, roll backs etc until he's really thinking about where he's putting his feet. I know rollbacks aren't really something that dressage / jumpers are asked to do, but the equivalent turns on the fore or hind and asking him to move athletically should be more than enough correction to "wake him up". I'd imagine the horse got himself all woke up as he scrambled to keep his footing.
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Post by jimmy on Mar 31, 2016 15:03:00 GMT
No one,it appears, even the rider, believes this was a "correction". It was a startled and pissed off rider. She didn't really try to defend it.
I don't condone this but I hesitate to get on the bandwagon here. There are several groups that go around and take video at the warm up arenas looking for these moments. Then they are played on Epona TV, and the offense is shown in slow motion over and over. I am never surprised at what I see. But I fear for any industry being regulated and under scrutiny by people who know next to nothing about horses or showing or riding or training. All you have to do is read some of the comments to see how the general public perceives these things. Of course, they are supposed to be outraged and shocked. That is the point of the videos that show the offense repeatedly in slow motion. I do not want these kind of people being the police for abuse. Horse training by committee will never work.
Ever been to an Arabian show? Or a modern western pleasure show? I just won't go. It's not what I do, not what I want to see. What I do instead is try to improve myself.Train by example. Every now and then, especially when I am shoeing, I know I need to suppress the urge to "get after" a horse. I make it a challenge to see what I can take. It's just a horse. But when you are astride or under a 1100 pound animal that can seriously hurt you, I don't judge the person who takes offense at something that might have seriously injured them, and loses composure for a moment.
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Post by rideanotherday on Mar 31, 2016 15:20:17 GMT
No one,it appears, even the rider, believes this was a "correction". It was a startled and pissed off rider. She didn't really try to defend it. I don't condone this but I hesitate to get on the bandwagon here. There are several groups that go around and take video at the warm up arenas looking for these moments. Then they are played on Epona TV, and the offense is shown in slow motion over and over. I am never surprised at what I see. But I fear for any industry being regulated and under scrutiny by people who know next to nothing about horses or showing or riding or training. All you have to do is read some of the comments to see how the general public perceives these things. Of course, they are supposed to be outraged and shocked. That is the point of the videos that show the offense repeatedly in slow motion. I do not want these kind of people being the police for abuse. Horse training by committee will never work. Ever been to an Arabian show? Or a modern western pleasure show? I just won't go. It's not what I do, not what I want to see. What I do instead is try to improve myself.Train by example. Every now and then, especially when I am shoeing, I know I need to suppress the urge to "get after" a horse. I make it a challenge to see what I can take. It's just a horse. But when you are astride or under a 1100 pound animal that can seriously hurt you, I don't judge the person who takes offense at something that might have seriously injured them, and loses composure for a moment. I'm quoting the rider here - “My horse was trotting, very relaxed and with his head down, when he stumbled. It was actually quite frightening and I really thought that both of us were going to fall down. I immediately checked that he was not injured. I then wanted him to pull himself together. My goal was to wake him up but not to push him too hard. The French team’s vet also checked that he was fine and had no problems. I am deeply sorry that I over-reacted and was too strong with my horse and I want to express my sincere apologies. ~Now, animal rights activists and pot-stirrers do sit around with their cameras handy. But it begs the question why do we take offense at the horse making a mistake? I haven't been to an arabian show. I did apply to an arabian show barn to work cleaning stalls. I interviewed and was watching one of the trainers work a horse. Again, I know I'm not making that kind of money, but the yanking that was going on hurt me to watch. I thanked them for their time and never went back. I was at the AQHA world show a few years ago and watched some of the classes and some of the warm ups. That's supposed to be the elite. There's got to be a better way. They (halter horse people)have turned a functional breed into this caricature of a horse. Many of the quarter horses that are winning in the halter classes (or as I like to call them "lead and feed" classes, because that's ALL those horses can do) are tanks on tea cups. They are post legged, over muscled, pig butted and completely unsuitable for anything other than leading around an arena. Halter horses being lead with lip chains because apparently they haven't been taught how to behave in public and CAN'T without a chain under their lip. Seriously, what ARE they thinking? Watching some of the pleasure horses warm up...and they could hardly move. Pleasure? Not to watch. Certainly not to ride. Add to that the riders banging the horse in the mouth at every stride, there's a reason why activists are finding so much fodder for their video. Some of the things that I consider abusive aren't making it to video though. AQHA is making moves (sort of) to help, with some changes to the rule book about lip chains and descriptions of gaits. It remains incumbent on the judges to score according to the rules. It will make for some uncomfortable times for either the judges or the competitors as the rules are enforced. As a sport, there are miles to go.
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Post by horseguy on Mar 31, 2016 15:49:22 GMT
"But it begs the question why do we take offense at the horse making a mistake?"
There is a "club" in equestrian competition. I call it the "Yellow Board Club". To become a member you have to go through the club initiation ceremony, which is kind of unusual. This ceremony begins with you laying on the ground and someone calling an ambulance. You wait, on the ground. The ambulance comes and a medic looks you over, asks a few questions, if you are conscious, and then they bring out the yellow board. They lay it on the ground next to you and get it under you as best they can without hurting you. Then they strap and tape you down to the board. Next, a bunch of people pick up the yellow board and put it, with you on it, onto a gurney and into the ambulance.
It is typically members of the Yellow Board Club that take offense at a horse that is experienced in competition, well trained and sound that spaces out and stumbles or makes some other stupid mistake right before competing. The reason is one club initiation ceremony is enough. Two is bad and after that it gets really old.
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Post by rideanotherday on Mar 31, 2016 16:44:59 GMT
"But it begs the question why do we take offense at the horse making a mistake?" There is a "club" in equestrian competition. I call it the "Yellow Board Club". To become a member you have to go through the club initiation ceremony, which is kind of unusual. This ceremony begins with you laying on the ground and someone calling an ambulance. You wait, on the ground. The ambulance comes and a medic looks you over, asks a few questions, if you are conscious, and then they bring out the yellow board. They lay it on the ground next to you and get it under you as best they can without hurting you. Then they strap and tape you down to the board. Next, a bunch of people pick up the yellow board and put it, with you on it, onto a gurney and into the ambulance. It is typically members of the Yellow Board Club that take offense at a horse that is experienced in competition, well trained and sound that spaces out and stumbles or makes some other stupid mistake right before competing. The reason is one club initiation ceremony is enough. Two is bad and after that it gets really old. I have no words.
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Post by rideforever on Mar 31, 2016 18:01:38 GMT
Did the horse need a correction? Yup, he should pay attention to his feet.
Should the rider have been so aggressive? Nope, because his lack of attention was her fault.
The main responsibility belongs to the rider. Always. If you can't deal with that, maybe find a sport better suited to that type... Like knitting
Listen, horse riding is risky. But if you're blaming the horse for mistakes, you need a better mirror
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Post by rideanotherday on Mar 31, 2016 18:46:07 GMT
"You’re not working with just a machine; you’re working with a mind. The horse is a thinking, feeling, decision-making animal and each one has a distinct personality. But the human always acts superior. The human thinks it's smarter; it always wants to have things its way and right now. It wants to be boss. If trouble comes up, the human turns it into a contest with the horse. But if you do that, watch out.............you just may lose." - Ray Hunt
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Post by horseguy on Mar 31, 2016 18:47:10 GMT
Did the horse need a correction? Yup, he should pay attention to his feet. Should the rider have been so aggressive? Nope, because his lack of attention was her fault. The main responsibility belongs to the rider. Always. If you can't deal with that, maybe find a sport better suited to that type... Like knitting Listen, horse riding is risky. But if you're blaming the horse for mistakes, you need a better mirror I have played on a lot of teams, high school, was a college NCAA Div.I athlete and have been fortunate to have been a paid pro competitor. Intense teams have intense members. They push each other to become better, to play harder. I have been on teams with many great athletes, human and equine. And yes, there are times when we must take responsibility for our teammates as in "his lack of attention was her fault" from the push-your-teammates perspective. However, the horses at that level understand the process. They get the sport and they understand the high standards. Her horse spaced out right before competition. That should not happen. If it happens regularly, the horse needs to be cut from her string. If she is at fault, therefore, it would be that she is sticking with a second rate teammate, or he was having an off day and he needed to be made aware of that. It was a little Bobby Knight, but she didn't through a chair at him.
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Post by rideanotherday on Mar 31, 2016 19:08:12 GMT
Intense my lilly white .....
That horse made a mistake, yes. Did you not see him fix himself and save them both? He knows his job. And instead of giving up and going down he kept going. His reward? We all saw it.
I've been a competitor my whole life. I've worked in jobs where my mistake could kill someone. The funny thing is, I've worked harder for coaches or leaders and with ethics and integrity. Temper or anger do not lift anyone's level. Forcing performance through intimidation or fear is a terrible thing. True leadership will raise the level of even mediocre players, intimidation will stifle any spark of greatness.
Its not just what you do, but why.
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Post by horseguy on Mar 31, 2016 19:38:43 GMT
"Its not just what you do, but why."
Yeah, she was just pissed off. I can't remember which topic, but the other day someone quoted a great rider saying that young riders today don't learn as much to ride as they learn to compete. She is young and maybe she had pre-competition gitters and lost it. A better rider would have felt the horse fixing himself instead of her over reacting. My impulse is to defend competitors. It's a difficult life and we all lose it sometimes. Fear of injury, desire to win, the peak experience of gameday, lots of stress. It's not within every rider's ability to manage it, even if they are very talented.
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