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Post by jimmy on Apr 25, 2016 23:26:09 GMT
The following video showed up on my Facebook page. I am posting it here, just to get first reactions. Am I the only one who wants to vomit? This is my first reaction. And my second. And now I'm thinking I'm so old school that there is no hope for me. Because this fluff makes me sick. I think it's meaningless and useless. And the tone of the speakers voice makes me want to choke somebody! Why am I posting this? I am just curious if anyone can put into words what is wrong with this. And does it irk anyone else. Or is it just me. www.facebook.com/EquineLibSports/videos/1165800296784225/ |
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Post by grayhorse on Apr 26, 2016 2:31:42 GMT
Watched it. I rolled my eyes, that was my reaction to it.
Maybe I am just dense but, it looked to me like that horse knew what she wanted it to do...
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Post by horseguy on Apr 26, 2016 4:25:13 GMT
Her public speaking style is a cross between Meryl Streep and Ted Cruz. She is in a sand arena with no distractions doing a version of Monte Foreman "Join up". I loved the leopard skin flowered blouse. Yeah, vomit comes to mind.
Let's teach our horses to "initiate movement". When I was a kid that would have been called a bronc.
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Post by rideanotherday on Apr 26, 2016 10:47:21 GMT
If I wanted a dog...oh wait. I have a dog.
Her speaking style is rather annoying and her presentation of what initiates movement has no bearing on reality, animal psychology or any kind of understanding of equine behavior.
Horses are awesome survivialists and really poor decision makers. I prefer to initiate their movement.
I've done groundwork with many horses and getting them to trot up and along with me usually doesn't involve pinned ears and shitty attitude. If it does? That is corrected. The small amount of time that I take out of a horse's life isn't so bad that they need to act like a jerk.
That shirt...I guess fashion is one other thing I just don't understand. I'm ok with that.
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Post by jimmy on Apr 26, 2016 13:49:52 GMT
Thanks for the comments. I try to keep an open mind, and explore ideas. So I try to temper my revulsion to this kind of thing with some unbiased scrutiny. Okay,that's dumb. But is there any thing there to consider? Not much. But this woman has a following, evidently.
It appears on the surface to be deep, but in reality, it is very superficial, and emotional. It goes no deeper than the warm feeling some might get.
The question of where and how movement in a horse initiates could be a good one to explore in depth, because it begs the question of how training works. But only in an intellectual, over coffee or a beer kind of way. Directing and redirecting the thoughts of a horse is a good place to start. If you are perceptive enough to recognize them and read the horse. There is nothing in this video about reading the horse. At some point, either through conditioned responses, or reward punishment, the horse learns habits. We are no different. We repeat what we are used to doing. So at some point there isn't much thought to it.
She also missis the point that not only do horses follow, (that's the "leadership" crap that Parelli started, I blame him for everything) horse also push each other around quite a bit. The bite and drive. They don't wait for their buddy to initiate anything, if he is in the way. The push, snarl. So I think it is fairly equal, the amount of following they do, and the amount of driving each other around they do.
My point is, that all ready I have gotten deeper than this fashionable flossy filigree fluff fest! How's that for alliteration?
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Post by rideanotherday on Apr 26, 2016 13:57:08 GMT
Thanks for the comments. I try to keep an open mind, and explore ideas. So I try to temper my revulsion to this kind of thing with some unbiased scrutiny. Okay,that's dumb. But is there any thing there to consider? Not much. But this woman has a following, evidently. It appears on the surface to be deep, but in reality, it is very superficial, and emotional. It goes no deeper than the warm feeling some might get. The question of where and how movement in a horse initiates could be a good one to explore in depth, because it begs the question of how training works. But only in an intellectual, over coffee or a beer kind of way. Directing and redirecting the thoughts of a horse is a good place to start. If you are perceptive enough to recognize them and read the horse. There is nothing in this video about reading the horse. At some point, either through conditioned responses, or reward punishment, the horse learns habits. We are no different. We repeat what we are used to doing. So at some point there isn't much thought to it. She also missis the point that not only do horses follow, (that's the "leadership" crap that Parelli started, I blame him for everything) horse also push each other around quite a bit. The bite and drive. They don't wait for their buddy to initiate anything, if he is in the way. The push, snarl. So I think it is fairly equal, the amount of following they do, and the amount of driving each other around they do. My point is, that all ready I have gotten deeper than this fashionable flossy filigree fluff fest! How's that for alliteration? Anthropomorphism. People forget that horses aren't humans. The instant we start ascribing human attributes, we lose the intrinsic value of the horse and all that it means to be a horse. People also forget there's nothing wrong with treating a horse like a horse. They measure "respect" differently than a human. Are you consistent? Do you make sense to the horse? Are they getting to eat? Drink? Are they safe? Yeah. That's what they care about. And they prefer solid colored shirts rather than animal print w/ floral accents. |
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Post by horseguy on Apr 26, 2016 14:13:43 GMT
I agree, a discussion of when and how horses initiate movement is a good one. I think that sort of initiating comes most from highly trained horses that have a lot of experience and have formed an 'opinion" of how things are best done. I had a mare that had a real strong set of opinions about how to approach a jump. She was a high quality horse and about 5 or 6 strides out from a jump. I commit her to the line in the striding I wanted. About half the time she'd "correct" me and adjust the striding and line to suit herself. Sometimes we'd go back and forth right up to the take-off. The funny thing was that often when she would end up doing it my way, I would see after the jump that she had the better idea.
After a while I gave up and just gave her a very broad commitment to a jump essentially told he, "OK, do it your way" and a high percentage of the time she was right. Would you call that "initiating movement"? That's what came to my mind when this very weird woman in the video was talking.
She has an audience, I am sure. Today's horse/pet owners eat that stuff up.
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Post by rideforever on Apr 27, 2016 23:09:33 GMT
Ugh. This woman terrifies me. Basically trying to turn horses into big dogs.
I do lots of groundwork. Lots of it, and some of it is Liberty work. However, all of the groundwork directly pertains to riding. I'm not sure that any of the horses she's working with are actually going to ride. Look at the quality of the horse's movement... Would you want to ride that? It would make for a loooong day in the saddle for certain
And her presentation definitely puts me off. The holier than thou, if you don't let your horse "choose " you are missing out on a mystical element of horse ownership
Humbug
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Post by horseguy on Apr 28, 2016 4:35:02 GMT
Ugh... The holier than thou, if you don't let your horse "choose " you are missing out on a mystical element of horse ownership. Humbug I started this forum to oppose this sort of thing. Horses are not pets. There may be a mystical element to horsemanship but it takes something other than permissiveness to get there. In the restaurant business they say, "You have to have a good steak, but also you must have the "sizzle". This woman is all sizzle with no steak. |
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Post by rideforever on Apr 28, 2016 13:51:33 GMT
Here's the thing, I do agree that there is a spiritual/emotional component to working with horses. But most of it, as far as I'm concerned, has more to do with personal mastery of my emotions, my body and my reactions. It is in being a good partner and a good leader; yet requiring the horse to also be a good partner.
I'm not telling people to do it my way. Or even saying they are wrong if they do it differently.
And that's where folks like her really get my back up. If you aren't doing Liberty her way, you are wrong. Boo
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Post by horseguy on Apr 28, 2016 19:47:38 GMT
Here's the thing, I do agree that there is a spiritual/emotional component to working with horses. But most of it, as far as I'm concerned, has more to do with personal mastery of my emotions, my body and my reactions. It is in being a good partner and a good leader; yet requiring the horse to also be a good partner. I'm not telling people to do it my way. Or even saying they are wrong if they do it differently. And that's where folks like her really get my back up. If you aren't doing Liberty her way, you are wrong. Boo
I like your description of the spiritual aspects of a relationship with a horse. A horse can "bring a person together" to an unexpected experience. I am, or I was, about as aggressive a polo player as they come, very competitive. In a game once a little mare did something so incredible that it made my eyes well up. I couldn't see the freakin ball for a few seconds. That was a moment.
As for "saying they are wrong if they do it differently", I agree up to a point. If it has no negative effect on the horse, my feeling is "what the heck, let it go". But there are times it is just wrong. In the case of this video, my judgment is that the woman is leading people and horses astray. That's not right but it's not the worst thing either until someone gets hurt.
I have fed herds of horses out in the open on many a icy dark night. That can be tricky or dangerous when horses don't have the right kind of respect for humans. Bringing feed to a herd out in the open in the dark when the horses are encouraged to "be at liberty" can send a person to the hospital before they know what happened. I will work horses "at liberty" like free jumping, but it always has a task connected to it. Having a horse follow you around as you walk or run is not a meaningful task and it has the potential downside of a horse crowding you, running over the top of you or a bunch of not so good things. It's useless and dangerous.
(are you ready for my chorus?) If we had a national equestrian federation that was more than a business lobby and it set standards, people like this video woman would not be able to get any traction inside the horse community. |
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Post by rideforever on Apr 28, 2016 21:31:40 GMT
Horseguy- I wish that were true.
Unfortunately, we live in the US, and people like her would have traction anyway, for the same reason psychic hotline exists. People are looking for a relationship beyond the visible.
Which is funny, because you get that relationship by being a good leader. But ever since Parelli opened the Pandora's box of being your horse's friend and playing games with him, people don't want to work at good horsemanship any more.
McDonald's, air conditioning, and pat parelli are the ruination of this country. We want it easy, we want it fun....and definitely we don't want to work anymore
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Post by horseguy on Apr 29, 2016 1:50:21 GMT
McDonald's, air conditioning, and pat parelli are the ruination of this country. We want it easy, we want it fun....and definitely we don't want to work anymore You know, I played polo in hot summers for 25 years. My truck did not have air conditioning (it had vent windows). In August, tournament season, I was the only player that didn't think it was really hot. |
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