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Post by horseguy on Jun 20, 2016 13:03:08 GMT
People do lots of stupid stuff, even if they know better. Being cavalrymen does not save them from that. One part of my early riding lessons with an Army rider/instructor was we absolutely could not do stupid stuff with our horses. In the early 1950s, as the country transitioned from a wartime economy to normal, prosperity flourished. My dad used to say, "Before the War not every family had a car, after the War many families had two." In that postwar prosperity recreational horseback riding became popular and available to more people. In that context many former cavalrymen opened stables throughout the country.
These Army riders were hardcore horsemen. Many felt that the dismounting of their service branch in 1943 was a mistake. Some formed "troops" with the stated purpose of maintaining the skills and values they had dedicated their service careers to because they felt that Army would come to its senses and reestablish the horse cavalry. The standards needed to be maintained until then. These stables were run as a military stable would have been. Some had uniforms, insignia, rank and so on. Where I learned to ride had some of the military trappings. No girls or women rode there, and there was a lot of "yes sir". But the main aspect of the cavalry that we were required to follow was that our horse was not our property, not for our pleasure, not for our entertainment and definitely not for anything remotely like for our whim. Our instructor regularly told stories of soldiers being court martialed for the inappropriate use of their mount and the punishment that resulted. We had a lot of fun but never at the expense of our horses. Stupid stuff didn't happen.
I think often now, 63 years later, that it was this firm training that has made me obsolete in the contemporary horse world. I see that stupid video on the ice and remember how carefully we went into and out of water. I remember the instilled care for our horses while we did what now would be considered dangerous riding for young kids. The idea of "boys will be boys" was an accepted idea, but it absolutely did not apply to a horse because the horse was in our care and that somehow became a solemn duty. This saved us and our horses from stupid stuff.
A week or so ago I wrote about a 20 something woman who rode with rigid hands and how I tried to explain the effect her hands had on the horse that was complaining. She cut me off in mid sentence a couple times and insisted on explaining to me that the horse had a problem. This type of experience, for me, defines the biggest change in horsemanship over the past 50 years. The complaining horse was there for the young woman's benefit and enjoyment, not the other way around, and she was asserting her entitlement on the horse. If we ever did anything like that, we found ourselves walking. Cavalrymen would not have put there horses at risk as those trekkers did.
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Post by rideanotherday on Jun 20, 2016 14:02:24 GMT
Bob, obsolete is not the word I would use. Absolute is quite a bit more appropriate. You see things as very black and white and you are just as guilty of it as the girl you are describing with the rigid hands.
One of the reasons why she likely didn't want to "see" your way of thinking is entitlement, but I think one of the other reasons is your presentation. Based completely on how I see you present things on this board, I can see someone struggling to respond positively to your input.
Keep in mind that each person learns differently. Teaching in a military fashion doesn't work for everyone and perhaps her inability to take in and apply what you presented had more to do with her learning style. Each horse is different, so is each student. It's rare to see cookie cutter approaches be successful with every student.
Your description of this girl with the rigid hands reminds me of something that happened in my Advanced Western Riding class. I took the class as a reward to myself for the pure science classes I was taking. I was several years older than most of the other students. Unlike them, I hadn't ever been a paid trainer, hadn't really competed - to them 4H didn't count. The day we "learned" to use spurs was a telling one. These other students hadn't learned what "production" is yet.
We were instructed to trot to a cone and then leg yield without spur, so that we could have a gauge for what spur use could do for us. The second time around we were told "don't nag your horse to death with tapping, stick him, mean it and be done. Your horse should move smartly to the side". As we were in line waiting to go, I heard a lot of the other students saying that they would never use a spur that way and how cruel it was etc etc etc. It came to my turn. Keep in mind, I was the oldest in the class besides the instructor, riding the old grumpy cow pony. But I understood the lesson. My opinion didn't count. So I trotted Gary to the cone and applied the spur as described. His leg yield was much snappier with a spur used and he was quite a bit more willing to move off my leg. Seeing the looks on their faces when the instructor yelled "THAT! That is what I was looking for!. If you want to learn how to use a spur, you need to talk to Rose." I was pretty sure I was going to get murdered after class. I didn't want attention, and that's not quite how I use a spur now, but for the purposes of the class, I reproduced what was required.
It had more to do with ego. I don't have one in a lesson, and when I'm paying for someone else's opinion what I do is what is said in the class. I will evaluate the lesson later and see how it fits with what I know and do. Some parts I will take, some parts I will leave. That's a lesson not learned in most riding situations. And it's hard to keep opinions quiet. Some people get the lesson and sometimes people are the lesson.
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Post by horseguy on Jun 20, 2016 15:18:36 GMT
I think obsolete is the correct description of my teaching style. Concepts like "everyone learns differently" is what I call relativism. While true, there are some absolutes and some relative aspects to riding. For example, the fellow who asked about the Military Seat and wanted to be right more than learn the subtleties was unable to sort out the distinction. He quoted Chamberlin to make his case, but if you read Chamberlin, he has some absolutes and some important relative elements of his teaching.
I am very good at teaching the relative aspects of riding and training. That's the discovery of feel. My basic underlying foundation is in how I learned and that is based on absolutes like you get court martialed if you do not respect your horse above all else. There is no room for "everyone learns differently" in that. The young woman was abusing the horse, not aware of the horse's communication of her abuse, and she was dead wrong. That's a standard I will not abandon. I fully understand that this principle is offensive to the typical contemporary riding student. Times have changed. You not only can do stupid stuff with your horse now, it is the norm in so many ways. Horses today are generally overweight, they are generally spoiled and poorly trained. That was not the case decades ago. All of these things give contemporary owners pleasure. The horse is fat because it makes the owner feel generous. The horse is spoiled because that makes the owner fell loving. And so on. From my antiquated perspective, all these things are abuse of the horse and entitlement of the owner.
Fortunately I am retired and no longer have to put up with this new standard. Karen tells me it is a shame hardly anyone wants to learn what I have to offer, but at this point I don't really care. I hardly hunt anymore because most hunts have bred the hounds down so people can keep up with them. Polo is the least changed but it's a young person's sport and I had a long career in it. I am feeling pretty much done. Good time to leave. I post here and that's good. I feel sorry for contemporary horses, that's my main regret.
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Post by rideanotherday on Jun 20, 2016 15:45:54 GMT
Care and respect for the horse above all else is not obsolete. I agree with that. And that part should not change.
However, how you present that knowledge and that absolute does need to change to be successful in today's world. If you don't want to, that's fine too.
This conversation now reminds me of the discussion of "box" vs "spot". Interesting how you were completely for a more dynamic jump approach, but to training people you are not. Why not?
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Post by horseguy on Jun 20, 2016 16:16:21 GMT
Care and respect for the horse above all else is not obsolete. I agree with that. And that part should not change. However, how you present that knowledge and that absolute does need to change to be successful in today's world. If you don't want to, that's fine too. Being successful in today's world is a huge can of worms. For example if you are an investment banker, it seems you need to be a crook. That is if you mean commercially successful.
I have no idea of how I might change to "be successful". Would I allow the woman with harsh hands to abuse the horse? Would I "ask" her instead of tell her? What would that look like? The mind set of so many young students has been shaped by years of receiving trophies when they lose a game and of being frosted like a cake with self esteem. My experience is they typically cannot hear simple truths like "you are hurting the horse". Their experience is the horse is tossing its head and there must be something the matter with the horse. When corrected, they experience an invalidation of their experience and nothing else. They are thus impervious to simple facts because they are completely closed in on their own experience. They are difficult to teach to say the least. Fortunately they seek out like minded instructors who never challenge them and support their internal validation, and they leave me alone.
Forbes had a great article about these young people and why they are getting stuck in the lower levels of large companies. I will try to find it. I remember two of the points made. One was they believe they are better trained for their job than they are judged to be by their bosses. Another point was that they require excessive validation and take up too much of their boss's time seeking validation. It's a well know generational disparity of perception.
trophies for all
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Post by jimmy on Jun 20, 2016 16:54:51 GMT
My recent experiences are relative to this discussion. I have had to teach several adults how to ride, who didn't even know how to put a halter on a year ago. And a ten year old girl.
One of the main differences between the young girl and the adults, is that the girl knew how to be a student. She was so careful to try and do exactly as I said, that I had to be careful in how I told her, and in what order I told her. I was challenged to come up with a sequential lesson plan that only I knew the outcome of. But I had an eager and listening student.
The adults were a different story. Maybe they forgot how to learn.They came with many preconceived notions of what they were expecting, and what in their mind was important. I found the first thing I had to teach them was to how to take a lesson. Stop interrupting, stop interjecting, listen carefully and follow directions. Even to show up on time. Stop the idol chit chat. I had developed some exercises that would answer their questions, if they would simply allow the exercise to teach them. The young girl would repeat what I had asked her to do until instructed otherwise. The adults couldn't repeat the thing three times in a row, without stopping, insisting that I stop the lesson and respond to their questions. My answer would be, the exercise will answer your questions, if you would just do it! And stop talking! A year later, the young girl is taking cross rails on her own at a canter, off the longe line.(we started in a western saddle, soon moved to a jumping saddle.) She saddles her own horse. The adults saddle their own horse all right now. But they don't wait for instructions. They go off on their own agenda, and then tend to want to tell me what they want to learn today.
What kind of school is that? Where the "students" dictate the lessons. I don't get it. The young girl would ride backwards if I asked her. The adults think I'm too bossy if I make them get back down and mount their horse correctly.
As to the comments above about people do stupid things? Untrained, undisciplined people do stupid things. Trained horsemen do not.
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Post by rideanotherday on Jun 20, 2016 17:03:42 GMT
I'm sorry. Clearly I know nothing of horses or people. Enjoy.
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Post by jimmy on Jun 20, 2016 17:38:10 GMT
I'm sorry. Clearly I know nothing of horses or people. Enjoy. I fail to understand what it is you are finding so offensive here, and are taking in a personal way. I would agree that presentation is everything. Presentation to the student, and to the horse, might dictate outcome. But first, the student must be ready to be a student. I my recent experience, most of my frustration with the adults was in their lack of understanding that their not following instructions can get them seriously hurt, or worse, dead. I am trying to keep them safe. They don't know how one thing leads to another. It's not their fault they don't know. I don't blame them. But I will blame them if I repeated something a dozen times, and they do something else anyway, and get hurt, or fall off, or break equipment. If they need to learn by "I told you so" then maybe letting them fail is the best method. The bottom line is. horsemanship requires great discipline. There are certain procedural elements, that keep things going smoothly. These things must be learned, regardless of how it might make the student "feel" in learning them. Or I could show sympathy while they are in the hospital, or the horse is hurt, while thinking, thank goodness I didn't hurt their feelings! "
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Post by horseguy on Jun 20, 2016 17:43:44 GMT
My recent experiences are relative to this discussion. I have had to teach several adults how to ride, who didn't even know how to put a halter on a year ago. And a ten year old girl. One of the main differences between the young girl and the adults, is that the girl knew how to be a student. She was so careful to try and do exactly as I said, that I had to be careful in how I told her, and in what order I told her. I was challenged to come up with a sequential lesson plan that only I knew the outcome of. But I had an eager and listening student. The adults were a different story. Maybe they forgot how to learn.They came with many preconceived notions of what they were expecting, and what in their mind was important. I found the first thing I had to teach them was to how to take a lesson. Stop interrupting, stop interjecting, listen carefully and follow directions. Even to show up on time. Stop the idol chit chat. I had developed some exercises that would answer their questions, if they would simply allow the exercise to teach them. The young girl would repeat what I had asked her to do until instructed otherwise. The adults couldn't repeat the thing three times in a row, without stopping, insisting that I stop the lesson and respond to their questions. My answer would be, the exercise will answer your questions, if you would just do it! And stop talking! A year later, the young girl is taking cross rails on her own at a canter, off the longe line.(we started in a western saddle, soon moved to a jumping saddle.) She saddles her own horse. The adults saddle their own horse all right now. But they don't wait for instructions. They go off on their own agenda, and then tend to want to tell me what they want to learn today.
What kind of school is that? Where the "students" dictate the lessons. I don't get it. The young girl would ride backwards if I asked her. The adults think I'm too bossy if I make them get back down and mount their horse correctly. As to the comments above about people do stupid things? Untrained, undisciplined people do stupid things. Trained horsemen do not. I have highlighted the comments that I have experienced for the past 10 or so years. It's the new kind of student. The world is changing now faster than ever before.
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Post by jimmy on Jun 20, 2016 18:14:37 GMT
I have made some adjustments to individual needs. The one woman I teach, began to complain I yell at her. I have a very loud voice.I should be in theater, because I have no trouble projecting. It sound like yelling, when they are too far away to hear you. So my raising my voice sounds like anger to her. It may be a male to female thing. So I told her about the cordlesss earsets you can get. They are called ceecoach. I have a little mic like a cell phone mic with an ear piece. There is a small unit you attach to your belt. So my voice is right in her ear. So it made me very aware of the volume of my voice and the tone. So I don't blast her ear drum, I have to speak very softly and deliberately. It has forced me to be a little bit more thoughtful in how and what I say. It is also two way. But I disabled the two way feature. That eliminated the constant interruptions from her. I allow questions after the repeat of whatever exercise we are doing. It has helped.
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Post by horseguy on Jun 20, 2016 18:48:37 GMT
I think my baby boom generation is a last of a type. We do see the world in more black and white terms. We had to in many ways. The new generations have a very different social communication structure. What's personal to them is not for me and visa versa. I think I posted before that I was at a party and a guy was taking a picture of his beer bottle and posting on facebook so his friend across the room could see it. I asked him why he didn't walk across the room to show him the beer he was drinking and he gave me a blank look like "why?".
It has occurred to me that this kind of nonphysical "walk across the room" is preparation for mankind going into space. It will take years to get back and forth to Mars but with facebook as you primary social circumstance, it won't be lonely for the generation that makes those trips. In fact they will be able to be even more socially connected with time on their hands to post on all the social media sites. I'd want to take paper books I could turn pages in, but that would be too heavy.
We don't understand the changes that are happening. What we can do here is try to figure out how social changes will impact horsemanship. Sometimes I think the new cultural standards will kill horsemanship as I know it. What will replace it?
Example, we now live in a city with a small fenced back yard. We brought our hound here, named Hammer. He grew up on the farm and came back to the house smelling like a skunk and with porcupine quills in his face. He was a real farm dog. Last week it was 80 degrees and he was out back. It started to rain and we left him out knowing he'd enjoy the cool rain. Our next door neighbor texted to ask if we knew he was out in the rain. Very different perception of how to treat an animal than ours. I think horse owners are getting like that too. Another example, a very valuable skill in a hunt horse is to be able to intentionally break creek ice so other less trained horses can cross a frozen creek. You train this by taking a horse out on creek ice that will hold him but with movement will break. You move the horse back and forth and let him listen to the cracking and popping of the ice. Then it lets go and he drops into the water and find the bottom with his hooves. You used deeper and deeper creeks until he understand that the bottom is there somewhere. Fewer and fewer horses can do this. Hunts get all blocked up at creeks these days. One result is people don't hunt when there is ice on the water. I have shown students how to teach a horse to do this, and I have had some adults tell me it was cruel abuse.
It is in these little details like braking ice that equestrian sports begin to lose their ability to function and ultimately go away. I think it is good to discuss these things and try to see how we can keep some semblance of horsemanship in tact.
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Post by rideforever on Jun 20, 2016 19:08:42 GMT
Going back to the student with harsh hands.... Folks like her have difficulty with empathy. So I have concrete exercises for folks like her. I have her hold the bridle, while I hold the reins. And then I demonstrate the difference to her. I will yank hard enough to get an ouch. And explain that's what her horse is feeling when she's quick or harsh. And giv her a soft feel, so she can really see the difference. I usually see a change after that exercise. Most folks don't really want to hurt their horse. But maybe she used to ride a more stoic animal who tolerated her harsh hands. It's like learning Spanish after you took French. Sounds are similar, but not identical.
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Post by horseguy on Jun 20, 2016 19:27:33 GMT
I like that exercise. I had one when I taught Pony Club to impress them with how clean a bit should be. Before tacking up the girls lined up and I made on put their bit in their mouth. Since they never knew who would be chosen, they all had very clean bits.
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Post by rideanotherday on Jun 20, 2016 19:39:54 GMT
I think maybe I am presenting the word "successful " in a different context than what you are interpreting. Success as I am using it doesn't have anything to do with money or making a living. When I refer to success in the training sense - were you able to convey your meaning and effect a change in behavior, or not? Success as a trainer has more to do with the number of students you are able to convey information to in a manner that they will be able to understand and use.
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Post by horseguy on Jun 20, 2016 20:16:05 GMT
I think maybe I am presenting the word "successful " in a different context than what you are interpreting. Success as I am using it doesn't have anything to do with money or making a living. When I refer to success in the training sense - were you able to convey your meaning and effect a change in behavior, or not? Success as a trainer has more to do with the number of students you are able to convey information to in a manner that they will be able to understand and use. I actually think I am good at that. Not for every student maybe, but time after time parents and adults would say to me that they felt they were getting more for the lesson money that they ever had before. Sure, many students left me after a couple lessons because I would not put up with their stuff, like Jimmy points out. I had one woman get a few steps from her luxury car and I stopped her. I said we could not look around because she was wearing dangerous heels, like 6" spikes. I explained that the shoes were inappropriate for a horse farm visit and perhaps she could come back another time. She left quickly and looked very unhappy as she left. Never heard from her again. It was a case of " most of my frustration with the adults was in their lack of understanding that their not following instructions can get them seriously hurt, or worse, dead. I am trying to keep them safe. They don't know how one thing leads to another." as Jimmy put it. The most important thing to establish with students is tha they have entered a dangerous environment when they come to a horse farm. Being around horses and being safe riding requires constant vigilance. It requires discipline but people want to come for their enjoyment and vigilance is not enjoyable for most. They would rather pretend that horses are big fluffy warm cuddles. I also trained a lot of Army officers attending the US Army War College in Carlisle. They were very vigilant focused individuals, but many thought after warfare, everything was relatively safe. So, in a way no one is easy to get attuned to the primary focus of safety around horses. It is primary because if all your energy goes into babysitting or protecting a student, you can't teach effectively. You never get to, "convey information in a manner that they will be able to understand and use" because you are perpetually trying to get them focused enough on basic safety to be safe enough to learn something new. It wasn't always this way. When I started teaching over 30 years ago I actually got more respect and attention even though I was definitely not as good a teacher. Ironically, the better I got at instructing, the more difficult it became to have respectful students who would listen. So, I only had a few students at a time and they learned to ride well.
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